Carpet Crawlers 99 - Question

Quote from Nanunami

well, the commercial failure was limited to North America. Even Phil was losing ground there with Both Sides and after that.
CAS deserved a follow up, Ray had a contract for two albums. They obviously did everything to make this period disappear (see Sum of the parts), so it’s no wonder they didn’t want Ray in this recording. This was just after the CAS tour ...

Totally agree CAS should have had a follow up. Many follow ups! They were still in their 40s, there really was no impediment other than ego (and only Mike's ego at that).

If I remember correctly, this version was done around the time of the first archive set. Peter did some new vocals for that as well and I think CC99 was initially a bonus track on archive one (which of course didn’t happen then). If so, I assume the idea to include Ray didn’t make much sense in this context. So that just have come up later then.

dies anybody know WHEN Peter and Phil have recorded new vocals for CC99?

If I remember correctly - work on Archive 1 started in the mid 90ies, so before Phil’s official departure. So, if this was meant to be on Archive 1, it’s logical that recordings took place in 95/96?

Tony Banks in 2013 on Carpet Crawlers 99: "Mike and I went down to Real World Studios and did our parts together. To be honest, an awful lot of what I played didn't get used at all. The reason we got Trevor Horn on board was because we thought we would all argue with each other. So we said, 'do what you want with it', really. I thought what he did was pretty good. I wasn't too sure about the little drum loop he used all the way through, but I thought the way Phil's voice took over from Pete's was just an amazing moment. Their voices have always had a certain similarity in intensity, but Phil has a slightly higher pitch that seemed to give such excitement to that third verse when he came in."

Ray Wilson in 2001: "I got a 'phone call to say that I was going to be singing. I was going to do a verse; Peter Gabriel was doing a verse and Phil Collins was doing a verse. And then I got a call telling me that I wasn't singing on the song anymore. They never told me why."

Quote from Phil Morris

Ray Wilson in 2001: "I got a 'phone call to say that I was going to be singing. I was going to do a verse; Peter Gabriel was doing a verse and Phil Collins was doing a verse. And then I got a call telling me that I wasn't singing on the song anymore. They never told me why."

That's a real shame, and disrespectful especially if as he says they literally didn't even explain why they were going back on what they initially told him. Badly done.

As to the version itself I've never been 100% sure what I think of it. The original is such a huge song for me and this very different take is nowhere near as good or atmospheric, but I appreciate the notion of reinventing it. As Banks said the switch to PC's lead vocal is great and I also agree about the drum track. The whole thing is an interesting idea but it turned out not very Genesis-y.

Quote from Phil Morris

Ray Wilson in 2001: "I got a 'phone call to say that I was going to be singing. I was going to do a verse; Peter Gabriel was doing a verse and Phil Collins was doing a verse. And then I got a call telling me that I wasn't singing on the song anymore. They never told me why."

Wow, that really sucks.

Yes if that’s how it happened it’s very poor behaviour.

Probably a case of leaving it to the management but it does sound as if they could have done a lot more to let Ray down gently over a few things. To be fair he has said that Tony handled things much better then Mike. Don’t think an upbringing at Charterhouse equips you for empathetic work relationships….

Quote from Thelawnmower

Don’t think an upbringing at Charterhouse equips you for empathetic work relationships….

Any joking there aside, to be fair I've mainly heard/read good things about their working relationships with other people. A friend works in the industry and reports positive experiences of dealing with them, and knows roadies and techs who count them as among the best employers. I've read stories of roadies who've had poor experiences with e.g. Pink Floyd, contrasting with how well treated they were on Genesis tours. Another friend worked on Whistle Test at the BBC including the short film they did with Genesis during the making of IT. She worked with a range of artists and said they were by far the nicest (and the worst were the Pogues). But it does seem that one way and another RW could have been treated better.

On a tangent: I heard a caller on a radio show say he was a roadie. The host asked who was the absolute worst artist he'd ever worked with. With zero hesitation the guy instantly, and very firmly, said Englebert Humperdink. He didn't elaborate, nor was he asked to.

Quote from Thelawnmower

Yes if that’s how it happened it’s very poor behaviour.

Probably a case of leaving it to the management but it does sound as if they could have done a lot more to let Ray down gently over a few things. To be fair he has said that Tony handled things much better then Mike. Don’t think an upbringing at Charterhouse equips you for empathetic work relationships….

I really don't get it. They easy could have produced variations of the track. And release them all .... but what Ray describes is fully in line with what we know from that era. No wonder they rarely talk about it ....

Quote from Backdrifter

Any joking there aside, to be fair I've mainly heard/read good things about their working relationships with other people. A friend works in the industry and reports positive experiences of dealing with them, and knows roadies and techs who count them as among the best employers. I've read stories of roadies who've had poor experiences with e.g. Pink Floyd, contrasting with how well treated they were on Genesis tours. Another friend worked on Whistle Test at the BBC including the short film they did with Genesis during the making of IT. She worked with a range of artists and said they were by far the nicest (and the worst were the Pogues). But it does seem that one way and another RW could have been treated better.

On a tangent: I heard a caller on a radio show say he was a roadie. The host asked who was the absolute worst artist he'd ever worked with. With zero hesitation the guy instantly, and very firmly, said Englebert Humperdink. He didn't elaborate, nor was he asked to.

yes that’s true I think. I worked with someone who’s friend was a roadie and would run to work with Genesis. There does seem to be something about the way things finished with Ray which doesn’t fit the pattern of their work with other people. Probably more complicated than it seems on the surface. I’ve always thought they come across well in interviews and maybe we make the mistake of thinking of bands as a bunch of mates when really they are work colleagues and perhaps, given their longevity, Genesis have done better than most at being civil to each other.

Video from 2007 :

So wasn't the song recorded in 1995 already? If Ray Wilson was supposed to record vocals that would have meant editing a recorded version before it was published?

To elaborate a little now the football has finished…

The Charterhouse four understandably seem to have abiding friendships and rivalries plus a lot of mutual respect. Phil seems to have established himself firmly within those friendships. Steve perhaps somewhere in the middle of the spectrum between friend and colleague. Darryl looks like a firm friend within the three man set up. Chester perhaps more of a colleague. As for Ray, the timing of his tenure would mean that he would really be seen as a colleague on friendly terms - unless they had stayed together for a long time. Maybe he was unrealistically expecting something more.
Whatever the truth- they have all had the sense to be polite and constructive about each other in the main. Society in general could Learn a lot from that.

Quote from Schrottrocker

So wasn't the song recorded in 1995 already? If Ray Wilson was supposed to record vocals that would have meant editing a recorded version before it was published?

From where do you get 1995?

Thanks, there is lots of contradictory information around about the timing of events at that time. I recall news from around 1998/99 that said their record company wanted them to record something with their old bandmates, on which Mike and Tony supposedly answered they first wanted to record their second album with Ray. It is often difficult to reconstruct the true events behind such news reports.

What I think must have been very tough for Ray was, not only did Phil announce he quit and did a big tour about quitting etc But literally by 99 and early 2000s he was doing a lot of Genesis projects and songs etc and of course by 2005 was discussing the five piece tour and then the eventual 2007 tour.

So although he "quit" the band, he pretty much only did so for a limited time whilst he went through his "midlife crises" phase and Tony and Mike didn't really help Ray that much by rushing an album and then giving up after it's bad reception.

I don't feel Ray or anyone really had a genuine chance at this point, especially if Phil was still sniffing around, something Peter avoided (82 aside).

Even Ray has said, he literally didn't hear anything for almost 3 years before officially being told that's it, which fell back into Phils timeline of doing Genesis related projects whilst being "done" with the band.

Quote from Christian

No, they started to work on the first Archive set around that time and Peter delivered some new vocals for the Lamb live show. There were some rumors the set might include a new version of CC, but that rumor came later. Eventually this plan was changed and the new CC recording was finally released in 1999.

I don't have precise info when CC was really recorded (I may find evidence, but need to check our old magazines) but that probably happened after the CAS tour.

I recall hearing that the Archive set was going to have the new Carpet Crawlers on it long before Archive 1 was ever released, and I remember being surprised/disappointed when it (finally) came out and wasn't on there.

At one point I had even assumed that it was getting everyone together to re-record Carpet Crawlers that was causing the delay on the first box, since I didn't know at the time the live Lamb show was also getting..."touched up" to the degree it was...

Quote from Thelawnmower

Yes if that’s how it happened it’s very poor behaviour.

Probably a case of leaving it to the management but it does sound as if they could have done a lot more to let Ray down gently over a few things. To be fair he has said that Tony handled things much better then Mike. Don’t think an upbringing at Charterhouse equips you for empathetic work relationships….

I think you are right. I think those with public school backgrounds are often at ease, confident , charming and get on well with people . I'm sure they were nice and charming with Ray when he was with them. They don't seem to care so much about others when no longer needed. I've just read the review on Sum Of The Parts and was reminded of the way Steve was treated. I've done absolutely no research on this subject.