Trump or Biden?

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    Hot take: Biden did what Trump said he would do. So another way of thinking about your question is, would you vote for the person who said they would do something, or the person who actually does it?


    My admittedly uninformed view of the particular issue at hand, is that it has been managed atrociously. At a minimum, collaborate with your allies. Of course, they should never have been there in the first place, which is on Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld et al.


    I've said here before, I understood the vote for Trump over Clinton at the time. Clinton was coming off an inglorious spell in the state department overseeing such historic crusades as the completely needless destruction of Libya and Syria, and was almost unelectable. Anyone else - like Sanders who had a ferocious grassroots movement - and even with Russia meddling, I doubt Trump would have got in. But he did. After four years of his ineffective and harmful bollocksry however, Trump or Biden? No contest. Trump's a sham.

  • Before I put my sixth sense in, just want to hear others opinions.

  • Before I put my sixth sense in, just want to hear others opinions.

    As do I.


    I think the fact that, after his four years in office, Trump garnered the second most votes of any candidate ever (second only to Biden) will be the topic of many political and sociological dissertations for many years.

  • Before I reply, I',m not a Trump fan.....My concern is, who would of done a better job in this crises.


    UK rely on the States and from what I can see may end carrying the last flag in Afghan.

  • There are two main problems with the question, both of which render it near-meaningless. One is that it's a simplistic reduction of a protracted 20-year fuck-up that is appalling in a number of ways and is now resulting in suffering and deaths. The other is that it takes little account of the dynamics of voter motivation. A significant proportion of Trump votes came, and would always come, from the cult-leader-style devotion he has among his most ardent supporters regardless of his actions, of the kind that led to 6 Jan. I suspect more Biden voters would be likely to be put off by his contribution to this debacle.

    Abandon all reason

  • There are two main problems with the question, both of which render it near-meaningless. One is that it's a simplistic reduction of a protracted 20-year fuck-up that is appalling in a number of ways and is now resulting in suffering and deaths. The other is that it takes little account of the dynamics of voter motivation. A significant proportion of Trump votes came, and would always come, from the cult-leader-style devotion he has among his most ardent supporters regardless of his actions, of the kind that led to 6 Jan. I suspect more Biden voters would be likely to be put off by his contribution to this debacle.

    I cannot agree more.

  • It's no contest really. I think I'd vote for anyone over Trump. He is not a politician, and has no interest in his country, or any other. Becoming president was just another tick in a box on his bucket list. As for Biden, I was hopeful, but it seems he was merely the least worst candidate on the voting sheet. He seems to have achieved nothing, except mess up Afghanistan, (by default, admittedly), thus making him America's Tony Blair. Not a compliment.


    I can fully understand America's wish to walk away from Afghanistan. It's a mess, and always will be (at least until it's culture catches up with the rest of the world, so likely about 800 years. As an ex-high ranking British Army friend of mine once said, after being there, they still live like it's the 12th century!) but surely, they could see that the taliban had merely melted into the general population, waiting the inevitable departure of the western forces which they were never brave enough to face across a battlefield in uniform. Killing and domineering civilians is so much easier!

    Ian


    Putting the old-fashioned Staffordshire plate in the dishwasher!

  • Considering the Afghanistan situation, who would you vote for now. Trump or Biden?

    The Trump administration negotiated an agreement with the Taliban, and did so while excluding the Afghan government from the talks. Biden simply abided by the agreement. Some on the right are currently blasting Biden for the tactics his administration has employed in executing the withdrawal that Trump negotiated. The problem with that criticism is that after watching 4 years of the freak show that was Donald Trump I have no reason to believe things would have gone any smoother in the withdrawal. At any rate, Afghanistan aside Trump’s disregard for democratic norms and his drive for dictatorial rule disqualify him from any “Trump or (fill in the blank)” debate.

  • Do we really need politics in this forum? The COVID stuff in some threads is pretty annoying ...

    Don't respond if you hate the subject matter , plain and simple.:).... I don't!


    I hate politics too. Both Afghan and COVID subjects are real to us. My point is Biden is walking away from a war which America started 20 years ago, which the British supported.


    Firstly, we should of never of entered in the first place. A war we never won! Lots of lives were lost and many disabled. :(

    Edited once, last by Noni ().

  • Do we really need politics in this forum? The COVID stuff in some threads is pretty annoying ...

    It's not a case of what non-Genesis topics are needed. If a forum allows a range of other topics why not have political threads? Politics affects us all, in some ways it'd be odd if it didn't get discussed. It is of course an area that can raise heated discussion, opinion clashes and abrasive disagreement... but then so can Abacab and trio vs 5-man. Some of those exchanges are pretty annoying too!

    Abandon all reason

    • Official Post

    Openness for interesting topics is, of course, to a certain degree a prerequisite for a forum.


    Having said that, I must also point out that it is the core purpose of this forum to provide a platform, a marketplace, an agora in which we all can discuss everything that has to do with the band known best as Genesis, its precursors, the solo careers of its artists, their music, books and what have you.


    Other topics that to not appertain directly to this cosmos should be introduced only sparingly. A number of threads documents that many people do not quite see it my way, and that's okay. I marvel why people would regularly outline what they are about to eat, are eating as they type, or have just finished eating, but there it is and it doesn't do harm.


    There are, however, certain topics that are, by their very nature, likely, perhaps even inevitably bound to raise controversies, and heated exchanges. They can change the climate in a forum. Some of them do so to a degree that it affects other areas of the forum (the "one bad apple" metaphor comes to mind).


    This very thread is, or has the potential, to become one of them, and I would like to thank everybody who have replied in it so far for the restraint in the wording they have shown.


    If this thread could sink into oblivion I, for one, would appreciate that.

    ...cried a voice in the crowd.


  • I'm certain you'll get your wish, this thread will no doubt fizzle out. As long as people don't annoyingly keep bumping it up.


    Yes I like that fan forums have off-topic areas. By the way, as I type this I'm eating a buttered scone and drinking a cup of tea. Thought you might like to know!

    Abandon all reason

  • As I recall the most contentious discussions on this board have centered on Covid and vaccinations, and those took place on strings that were devoted to Genesis-related topics. I enjoy the non-Genesis topics as a way to keep discussion going in a collegial fashion, especially during those periods when the type of Genesis-related news that typically generates interest and discussion on this board is in temporary short supply. At any rate, now that we’ve had several weeks of discussion on football over there to shut down non-Genesis discussions would rob we Americans of the opportunity to create a similar string focused on predicting NFL games :)

  • As I recall the most contentious discussions on this board have centered on Covid and vaccinations

    Did you see the ones started by the member who said "fans who like trio stuff are ignorant"?! I went to the covid arguments to get some respite!


    By the way, regarding the football predictions - good idea re the NFL, go to it I say - it needn't just appeal to American members in the same way the football one isn't just Brits. I might pitch in on an NFL one on the grounds I know bugger-all about it. I don't think I could do much worse than I am in the football one.

    Abandon all reason

  • As this was my thread, I was originally disgusted at the time that America pulled out and was very angry. As this is current news most serviceman and women who served are very angry as they lost friends and lots of injuries occurred.


    I hope to keep this thread short, but my point was who would of done a better job and was it necessary to leave just yet, although with the Taliban having invaded Afghan, this could of got messy with the Americans and their allies.


    I served with the Royal Air Force for 14 years and know how the military feel at this present time..


    My conclusion is the Americans should of never got into Afghanistan in the first place. Just a pointless war.


    ....................................................................................................................................................................................


    Personally I think it's healthy to have a debate on different subjects matters, which is the best part of being a member on a forum. Generally I'm a huge fan of Genesis, but also like other bands too. My preference is Progressive and those classic older pop bands or rock bands. ;) In my view there is only so much I can discuss about Genesis, although I have contributed to a few threads.


    My interests lie with Steve Hackett, Anthony Phillips and Peter Gabriel, as these artists interest me the most. Not much on the other members unless Genesis would invite them all to do a one off gig with all of them attending.


    Any way my anger is over, so I don't mind if this thread could sink into oblivion.

    ^^

  • I like seeing discussions about non-Genesis related topics, as much as I like discussions about Genesis. I don't really see the site as a forum just for Genesis, more a forum for Genesis fans who can discuss Genesis and anything else they want. That's why there are dozens of different sub forums, no? Including ones like this one specifically for non-music topics?


    Anyway, having bumped the thread back up, maybe now it will sink into oblivion.


    Oh, a colleague bought me a scone for breakfast this morning. It was some sort of raisin with oats affair, and was absolutely delicious. Now I'm having a bitter coffee from a seven eleven, and thinking I really need to get something more substantial for lunch!

  • I've not been around here much lately. I'm very busy in life right now, so forgive me for jumping in on a well discussed thread. No bloody contest. Biden has to take responsibility for going through with Trump's policy in Afghanistan and that has been terrible. Trump is a fascist or at at the best supports the fascists that support him . He thinks it's fine to grab women by the pussy. He takes the piss out if disability. He openly associates illness and disability with weakness. He believes liberals are lesser people as did Hitler . Citizens normally applaud their medal winning Olympians whereas he criticised U.S. silver medalists as failures ,weak , due their liberal leaning. He stated he believes in a balanced view re white supremacists . He's happily allowed businesses to go bankrupt and let the workers lose their jobs whilst he smiles to the bank. He has venerated asset strippers . He denies climate change and has his actions and words against our planet is criminal . He hosted Covid super spreader events and has blood on his hands for from preventable deaths. He strirred.up a mob resulting in a deaths at capital hill. He has sited conspiracy every single time he has not got what he wanted for years and years culminating in the election debacle and denial of democracy. He believes in the utter freedom to speak whatever lies he chooses culminating in GETTR and freedom of jihadists to promote their hatred. He is the figurehead of the culture that spreads fear lies and hatred . He has promotes fear and hatred against Muslims on due to terrorism and promotes vast number of Americans killed by non Muslim American terrorists with his support.of the NRA. Not once has he said something need s to done about it. He has normalised what was extreme thinking. O could go on bit I won't. It's not my style . I just don't like him . Worst of all he used a Phil Collins song to promote one of his rally's.

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    Agree with all of the above. I have a very negative view of Trump.


    But I noticed this snippet from a recent article about an all-girls robotics team from Afghanistan:

    In 2018, then-US President Donald Trump intervened to help several team members get visas for a robotics competition in Washington DC.


    It reminded me of a story I read in the run up to the 2016 election. A young child was profoundly sick and needed to fly from California to New York for medical care. Apparently commerical airlines refused because he was too sick so the parent appealed to Trump, and he sent his jet out to California to fly the kid to New York. Thing is, this happened in the 1980s and wasn't touted during the 2016 campaign as evidence that he was a good guy, so I just found it odd.


    Also, wasn't he a registered democrat and socialized with the Clintons before they were evil incarnate. And at some point, maybe in the 1990s, said that if he was ever going to run for president he'd run as a republican because their supporters are stupid enough to vote for him.


    All of which led me to research if there was any *good* stuff he did while in office. The answer is not much, but he passed something called the Creates Act which facilitates generic drug manufacturing. He also passed the First Steps Act aimed at reducing the federal inmate population.


    Probably there's more stuff. I'm comfortable taking sides here, and to be clear, my side is democrat/Biden at this point. But I think there's a tapestry of badness that's much bigger than Trump and to make him out to be the overarching villain is much too simplistic. This big present day mural of unnecessary chaos goes all the way from the DNC doing Sanders out of the primary in 2016 to Russian sponsored (or at least 'ignored by Russian authorities') online activists hacking national health services and spreading disinformation about the pandemic online. It's not just Trump. I think he's a bad guy who (charitably) did a terrible job as president. He actually ended up in a position where he could have done astounding good but through ineptitude, laziness or bad-mindedness chose not to. Associating with white supremacists and inciting insurrection were unforgivable.


    Sigh. Done waffling temporarily. Have also been very busy and unwinding with an IPA here and thinking of the Chinese curse about living through interesting times.