A couple of questions about "Duke"

  • I love "Duke". And yet, I still have burning unresolved curiosities about it, both ultimately arising from the liner notes.


    The first one: if you read the liner notes, you will see that both Tony and Phil are credited as having the requisite musical skill to play something called a "duck" (Mike, apparently, lacked the qualifications to play it, or simply chose not to). Since I am reasonably sure that those two didn't bring a couple of real bird ducks to the recording sessions, what the f*ck is a "duck"? Is it the device that makes the electronic "quacky" sound that occurs during the quiet sections of "Duchess" (although I always thought those came from the drum machine)? In short, what is it?


    The second one: if you read the liner notes, you will see that Dave Hentschel is credited with "backing vocals" (and has a little star-looking symbol next to it to draw attention to it). I have listened to this album more times than I care to attempt to count, and I don't hear any non-Phil/Mike/Tony vocals, except possibly in one song.


    When someone's voice is electronically altered, it still sounds like the vocalist. It's altered, of course, but the unique sound and timbre of the vocalist is still there. When Brian Eno treated Peter's vocals in "The Grand Parade Of Lifeless Packaging", it still sounds like Peter, just multiple bizarre versions of Peter. The "Peter-ness" of the voice was still there despite the alteration. If you sing out of your normal range, you still sound like you - you just sound like you are singing bizarrely. The "you-ness" of your voice will still be there.


    So, something has always made me ponder about the vocals in "Man Of Our Times" every time I listen to it. There is one section that simply does not sound like Phil, Mike, or Tony singing at all, even electronically altered. The section "All at once I can see what we do / Me into me and you into you / Me into me and you into you" sounds like a wholly different voice. The same voice is in the background during "No more me into me and you into you" a few lines later. So, is it possible that this is actually Dave's voice? I have thought about this a long time, over very many listens, and I simply can't arrive at a different conclusion. If anyone has definitive proof otherwise, please offer it. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. Has anyone else ever thought about this during this song?


    The floor is yours.

    Stepping out the back way, hoping nobody sees...

  • Don’t know about the duck but I’ve always thought the lines you quote do sound like Phil but also for an unknown reason I’ve thought David H is probably in the mix of backing vocals on Man of our Times. The production on that track has always intrigued me. Would like to know more about it.

  • ^ Yes I've never had any doubt the referenced vocals are PC, it's always sounded to me clearly like him but slightly different because he's singing in a lower register than was usual for him.


    Fair questions though about the 'duck' and the supposed DH bvox, I'd forgotten about those particular credits. I've never heard any quack-a-like sound in Duchess but anyway, yes all the percussive sounds interjecting over the intro soundscape are drum machine settings.

    Abandon all reason

  • Maybe it's not there in some releases of the album, but the ones I've seen clearly credit David H. for backing vocals on "Man of Our Times." Apparently he's in the mix of harmonies and not individually prominent.

    What about Duchess? I always thought Tony and Mike were singing along with Phil in the choruses.

    Yes, I believe that's the case.

    Little known fact: Before the crowbar was invented...


    ...crows simply drank at home.

  • There are 2 or 3 tracks which seem to have some layers of backing vox such as Duchess, MOOT, TIOA, PDA too? So it could be any of those and is no doubt mixed far back.


    Tangent: I used to live near Sutton in SW London. Around 1987/88 I saw an ad in a local paper saying a band was playing at the Secombe Centre theatre in Sutton, "including members of [it listed 2 or 3 bands] and Genesis". Sceptical yet mildly excited, I called the theatre and asked for more details. I can't recall who else was involved but on keyboards was Genesis "member" David Hentschel. The woman on the phone struggled to say it - "David Hen... Hents... Hesh... Hesh... Heshall or something."


    I've no idea what this band was and can't recall who else was in it. I know he played synths for Andy Summers's band but it wasn't that band in this case. Anyone have any ideas?

    Abandon all reason

  • A couple of months ago, I had some fun isolating the vocals and instruments (through phase inversions) from the 5.1 mix in Audacity. I think the only place where David Hentschel sings is on “Duchess” along w/Tony and Mike. There’s a soft, falsetto voice in there that I know is not coming from Tony, Mike, or Phil, so that must be David. I listened hard, and I think Phil is doing all the backing vocals on the rest of the tracks; “Man Of Our Times” included.

  • I recently picked up "The Songs of Genesis: A Complete Guide to the Studio Recordings" by Steve Aldous. He cites a Rockline interview where Phil said: "Before I got to know Earth, Wind & Fire and we wanted to get the horn sound on BEHIND THE LINES and TURN IT ON AGAIN, the only way to do it was for me to trigger a vocoder and a synthesizer, and I was fooling around with a duck call, which I played into a microphone, that went through a synthesizer, from the synthesizer to the vocoder. it ended up sounding like a horn section when it wasn't , so we called it the duck." The book says it was Tony's CS-80 synth.


    I think the first point we hear the "duck" are the brass "stabs" in the 2nd verse of BEHIND THE LINES (around 3:30).

  • A couple of months ago, I had some fun isolating the vocals and instruments (through phase inversions) from the 5.1 mix in Audacity. I think the only place where David Hentschel sings is on “Duchess” along w/Tony and Mike. There’s a soft, falsetto voice in there that I know is not coming from Tony, Mike, or Phil, so that must be David. I listened hard, and I think Phil is doing all the backing vocals on the rest of the tracks; “Man Of Our Times” included.

    Nice, thanks for that info! Can you share any pointers on applying phase inversions? I've tried that a couple times but haven't had too much luck!

    I agree it sounds like Phil on "Man of Our Times". Reminds me of how he changes the timbre of his voice for some of the verses in "Dodo"

  • Thank you, everyone, for all the replies so far! I think you have all collectively nailed the ID of the "duck"! ^^


    Midwestdrums , thank you very much for reminding me that I have these 5.1 mixes as well! ^^ See, since I strongly prefer the original CD version (over both the Definitive Edition Remaster and the 2007 remaster) of "Duke" for my personal listening, I sometimes forget that I do have a very good multichannel version of it, both on SACD and DVD. I will make time to listen to the SACD version as soon as I can manage it and see if I can hear Phil in it. (I'm sensing I'll hear him better there.)

    Stepping out the back way, hoping nobody sees...

  • I recently picked up "The Songs of Genesis: A Complete Guide to the Studio Recordings" by Steve Aldous. He cites a Rockline interview where Phil said: "Before I got to know Earth, Wind & Fire and we wanted to get the horn sound on BEHIND THE LINES and TURN IT ON AGAIN, the only way to do it was for me to trigger a vocoder and a synthesizer, and I was fooling around with a duck call, which I played into a microphone, that went through a synthesizer, from the synthesizer to the vocoder. it ended up sounding like a horn section when it wasn't , so we called it the duck." The book says it was Tony's CS-80 synth.


    I think the first point we hear the "duck" are the brass "stabs" in the 2nd verse of BEHIND THE LINES (around 3:30).

    You know, I was going to post a thread on the forum about this very book to see if was worth picking up. I wanted to get people's opinions about it before dropping the hefty sum to get a copy myself (it's about $50 on Amazon...as you now know ^^ I admire your bravery.)


    So, in your humble opinion, is this a book worth picking up? (Yes, I can reallocate funds if it is worth it for a Genesis fan to have, in your opinion.)

    Stepping out the back way, hoping nobody sees...

  • So, in your humble opinion, is this a book worth picking up? (Yes, I can reallocate funds if it is worth it for a Genesis fan to have, in your opinion.)

    I haven't read the whole book yet - so far just focused on the Duke & Abacab chapters as part of my research for my current TRO project! I did pick up on some info that I had not read/heard/seen elsewhere in print or online, so it's been good for those purposes. I can't say yet whether the other eras have new gems to be unearthed...

  • I haven't read the whole book yet - so far just focused on the Duke & Abacab chapters as part of my research for my current TRO project! I did pick up on some info that I had not read/heard/seen elsewhere in print or online, so it's been good for those purposes. I can't say yet whether the other eras have new gems to be unearthed...

    I will wait for your analysis then. The fact that it has excerpts from Rockline interviews does make it more appealing. I listened to those often back in the day and, as you quoted, sometimes information comes out during them that is difficult to find anywhere else.

    Stepping out the back way, hoping nobody sees...

  • Nice, thanks for that info! Can you share any pointers on applying phase inversions? I've tried that a couple times but haven't had too much luck!

    I agree it sounds like Phil on "Man of Our Times". Reminds me of how he changes the timbre of his voice for some of the verses in "Dodo"

    I can't remember exactly how to get the option, but I think there's a link on the wikipedia entry of Audacity to download the ability to import files in ffmpeg format. You need that to import the files from the DVD. Then, you wait for awhile to get all the tracks imported in from the Video folder from the DVD. Finally, you just play around by putting two of the files together and inverting one of them (by selecting "invert" from the Effect menu).


    Having said that, I think one of the files on each of the DVDs are the soloed lead vocals. Some of the backing vocals are in there too.


    You're right in that Phil changed his timbre a lot in those days; he was brilliant at that!

  • Thanks! I've tinkered with similar approaches with Audacity, but I've heard much better results from others' efforts, so am always on the lookout for "tips & tricks"! There used to be several "behind the multitrack" posts on YouTube with some amazing Genesis isolations, but it seems they're no longer available.


    I was able to rip the 5.1 audio for a few albums - The Lamb individual tracks are *really* interesting to listen to! The Abacab & Duke mixes don't have as much variety between the different channels, but sometimes the rear channels focus more on the instrumental parts. And yes, the center channel often has pure isolated vocals, or sometimes a guitar or keyboard solo.


    Another tool I like to use is "Transcribe!". It can provide its own phase-cancellation if the source file is in stereo. Sometimes that helps to clarify a part, but other times it can sound very "digital" and broken. I'm fascinated with such signal processing!

  • Nice, thanks for that info! Can you share any pointers on applying phase inversions? I've tried that a couple times but haven't had too much luck!

    I agree it sounds like Phil on "Man of Our Times". Reminds me of how he changes the timbre of his voice for some of the verses in "Dodo"

    I don't know what your budget is, but this: Penteo 16 Pro Up/Downmix AAX/VST3/AU Plugin (perfectsurround.com) is what Steven Wilson uses to make 5.1 mixes from stereo when the original master tapes are missing. Voyage of the Acolyte and Defector being 2 he has used it on. Probably a sledgehammer to crack your nut, I guess, but just so you know! :)

    Ian


    Putting the old-fashioned Staffordshire plate in the dishwasher!

  • Midwestdrums , thank you very much for reminding me that I have these 5.1 mixes as well! ^^ See, since I strongly prefer the original CD version (over both the Definitive Edition Remaster and the 2007 remaster) of "Duke" for my personal listening, I sometimes forget that I do have a very good multichannel version of it, both on SACD and DVD. I will make time to listen to the SACD version as soon as I can manage it and see if I can hear Phil in it. (I'm sensing I'll hear him better there.)

    I have now managed to listen again to "Man Of Our Times" (and the rest of "Duke") in 5.1. I'm glad that I did that; it's always revelatory.


    OK - for the lines I quoted in my original post at the top, I have discovered something - there are two voices singing those lines. I now agree with everyone else that Phil is singing the lead vocal on these lines; however, I'm still thinking that the backing vocal for these lines is very likely one of Dave Hentschel's contributions.


    I wonder of Mr. Hentschel did backing vocals with other acts he produced. "Duke" was the only album with Genesis where he is credited with assisting on vocals, so I can't compare with those other albums he did with the band. A quick scan on the Wikipedia page doesn't offer any suggestion of vocals with others. I guess I'll have to pull out some Elton John and Renaissance albums to see if he did any with them...

    Stepping out the back way, hoping nobody sees...