Mass Shootings

  • A US Marine Corps veteran with suspected mental health issues killed 12 people in a busy bar in California, including a policeman. The bar was hosting a University student country night when a gunman opened fire


    Arguments still going on around the world, but America still thinks Guns mean FREEDOM.. Lots of counties ban guns


    It's a very sad sort of affairs, could take a lifetime to change these laws. :(

  • America still thinks Guns mean FREEDOM.. Lots of counties ban guns

    As with many other issues, Americans are about 50/50 on this.


    Half of them say that gun laws will keep guns out of the hands of crooks and loonies.

    The other half say that gun laws are more likely to keep guns out of the hands of everyone else (i.e., those who need to defend from crooks and loonies), while the crooks and loonies will still find ways to get guns, or find other ways to kill.


    I'll leave it to anyone reading to decide which one makes more sense to them. But, with most issues that Americans are sharply divided about, it seems to me that the more fashionable viewpoint on a given subject is usually not the one that's reflected in real life.

    Little known fact: Before the crowbar was invented...


    ...crows simply drank at home.

  • There's no need to ban guns, that's a false equivalence. I lived in several countries and owning a gun and getting a permit was never an issue, although nowhere else there such a gun fixation, dare I say fetish as in America. It's all about about preventing certain people from getting certain firearms. The constitution is endangered by background checks. Everything else is a distraction….And money.

  • Keeping the guns out of the hands of "loonies" might be more realistic had Trump not repealed the law, introduced by Obama, making checks more stringent with the specific aim of making it harder for guns to be acquired by people with a history of mental health issues. Presumably as part of his general spiteful drive to undo whatever Obama did. By the way this is the same Trump who, after one of the various mass-shootings - I forget which one, there are so many - said that guns aren't the issue, it's allowing guns to be owned by... er.... people with a history of mental health issues.


    No, really?

    Abandon all reason

  • Add to that the fact that Trump's administration is fear-based and uses hatred as fuel to rile his party's base. Then those with a screw loose go out and shoot to kill thinking this will make Trump happy. I'm hoping the next 2 years go quickly and that somehow he is not re-elected.

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    My guess is that that trump person will be re-elected. He is good at what he does, though whether what he does is good for his country or for peace in the world may be something else entirely.


    Re guns:

    It is difficult to change the constitution of a country, and it is a good thing that it is difficult. The constitution usually contains the fundamental laws and rules and ideas which are to govern the co-existence of all the people in a country. Changing that means admitting that society is fundamentally at odds with the basic law, and that that basic law has become outdated or wrong somehow.


    In other words, changing the constitution of a country means that society has changed in such a way that the constitution as it is cannot fulfill its purpose, i.e. "to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".


    The right to possess and bear arms is a constitutional right in the USA, that much is true. It was necessary to set up a militia in the infancy of the USA so that this new country could defend its independence, I gather. But is it still "necessary to the security of a free state", as the second amendment puts it? Or does it, perhaps, cause more problems than it solves today?


    Not being a citizen of the USA, it is not for me to say.

  • Not being a citizen of the USA, it is not for me to say.

    US citizen or not, you have every right to give an opinion.


    Having looked at a range of sources it appears that the US has the highest rate of privately-owned firearms in the world - the global 2018 Small Arms Survey put US gun ownership at 120%, meaning there are more guns than people. Add to that the weak gun laws, which Trump made weaker when he reversed a law introduced by Obama making it harder for people with history of mental illness to purchase firearms - and then as mentioned above, after one of the various recent mass-shootings, he said guns weren't to blame, mental illness is. You can't make this stuff up.


    Most gun deaths in the US are suicides, and most homicides are individual ones not the mass shootings, although while the US has less than 5% of the world's population, it has 31% of mass shooters.


    While there are countries with higher gun-homicide rates, among developed countries the US is quite high up the list, in the top 6 I understand. The others are nations such as Brazil, Guatemala, Colombia, Mexico, Venezuela which have various kinds of economic problems and weak institutions such as their criminal justice systems, issues the US doesn't have. What is it in the American pysche that causes such a relatively high rate of gun deaths? Those opposed to stricter gun regulation repeatedly say that guns aren't the issue, people are. Even though the broad availability of guns, and the tenacious belief in the right to bear arms, both contribute to this issue those people are in a sense correct. The guns don't discharge themselves. So in some ways Martinus you are right, whatever the constitutional issues might be, there is clearly an issue of some other kind at work here, that makes so many US citizens trigger-happy.


    As to Trump's possible re-election, I do think it is unfortunately a very real likelihood. While the Dems regained some ground in the mid-terms, that is not going to be a magical solution. Dems 2020 campaigning needs to happen asap and at the moment they don't seem spoiled for choice for candidates. We even have Hillary Clinton indicating she might run again. I quite like her, but thought in 2016 she might not win - the Clinton 'brand' has outlived its shelf-life and I don't think running again will help.


    The emergence of Sarah Palin 10+ years ago sowed the seeds of accepting high-profile politicians being unashamedly bullish, stupid, unsophisticated and hardline. Trump's success is the result, helped by wall-to-wall media coverage the like of which most candidates can only dream of, something that continues even now. His unfiltered aggressive undignified words and behaviour are very popular with great swathes of Middle America who are unbothered by his constant lies and self-contradiction, and his complete disregard for etiquette and the conventions of state, his staining of the office of President. With the Dems so far providing little or no realistic opposition, I foresee another 4 years of DT.

    Abandon all reason

  • Personally, I believe he is going to be impeached. I followed quite closely the whole Muller's investigation and after all those indictments to people involved in his campaign, it is impossible to believe he is clean and I believe that what is going to come to the surface is going to be so egregious in terms of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, tax returns and campaign funds that there will be little argument. He is both so stupid and so corrupt. This will probably go away but a bigger problem remains: approximately 30% of the American electorate is and will remain on his side. The worlds has learned that the US is only one election away from electing a madman able to derail everything, Those who followed the Republican primaries in the past years know that something like Trump has been in the making for quite some time now and not saying that the Democrats are angels but it is a freaking zoo on the other side: Palin, Santorum, Michelle Bachmann, Ted Cruz , Ben Carson..... It was only a matter of time.

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    I don't think he will be impeached. The people who support and finance him are very rich and very powerful, and all representatives and all senators, especially the Republican ones, will come under tremendous pressure to support than man. With all the loosening of regulations those people might not even have to risk any money for this, they could just play havoc with the financial markets or the energy sector (which might even turn out to be profitable for them).


    A bleak view? Yes.


    But four years ago I would not have believed that the people of the US would willingly give the White House to such a man.

    And I would not have believed that the UK would voluntarily leave the EU.

  • A bleak view? Yes.


    But four years ago I would not have believed that the people of the US would willingly give the White House to such a man.

    No, not bleak view, just a realistic one and normally I would believe with you. Trump though is abnormal and while I'm certainly not an optimist I have the feeling he is really guilty of all the things they think he has done. His allies know that too, they are just holding the fort but if the conspiracy to defraud the USA is proven they are going to have to draw the line.

    As I said before, Trump has been in the making, there's been a grotesque crescendo in the Republican party from Regan on and Trump si the culmination of that.

  • Let's not forget that Trump counts among his friends the murderous King of Saudi Arabia and Russia's self-imposed President Vladimir Putin. Donald Trump wants to be America's dictator. He cares not one bit about our country, it's laws or its citizens. It's a scary reality, so hold on because we're in for a bumpy ride. It will get worse before it gets better. I want to be the optimist here, but after all that's happened these past two years, it's difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

  • Let's not forget that Trump counts among his friends the murderous King of Saudi Arabia and Russia's self-imposed President Vladimir Putin. Donald Trump wants to be America's dictator. He cares not one bit about our country, it's laws or its citizens. It's a scary reality, so hold on because we're in for a bumpy ride. It will get worse before it gets better. I want to be the optimist here, but after all that's happened these past two years, it's difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel.

    I too am an optimist, but largely share your forebodings for all the reasons you gave. And it'll be highly unlikely the two-thirds majority in both houses required for impeachment proceedings will be achieved.


    While I'm not a US resident, I still feel very gloomy about what's happening there in context of my own country's descent into lunacy - this is a time when the last thing we should be doing is breaking ourselves away from the relative safety of a large bloc of friends. The brexiters with their demented deluded isolationist rantings are dragging us into a future in which we are a tiny island nation, a minnow waiting to be swallowed by huge sharks like the US, China and Russia. I really fear for our younger generations - how we have failed them.... Sorry to be so down!

    Abandon all reason

  • I too am an optimist, but largely share your forebodings for all the reasons you gave. And it'll be highly unlikely the two-thirds majority in both houses required for impeachment proceedings will be achieved.


    While I'm not a US resident, I still feel very gloomy about what's happening there in context of my own country's descent into lunacy - this is a time when the last thing we should be doing is breaking ourselves away from the relative safety of a large bloc of friends. The brexiters with their demented deluded isolationist rantings are dragging us into a future in which we are a tiny island nation, a minnow waiting to be swallowed by huge sharks like the US, China and Russia. I really fear for our younger generations - how we have failed them.... Sorry to be so down!

    Small technicality - only a simple majority is required for articles of impeachment to advance out of the House of Representatives; however, as you correctly said, it requires a 2/3 supermajority in the Senate for conviction and removal of a president (or vice president) from office.


    I was very sad when Brexit passed. I was still living in the UK when all that nonsense was being discussed. I wish PM Cameron had lowered the voting age to 16 for this vote, the same way the vote for Scottish Independence was lowered just for that issue - votes like this impact the young the most; they ought to have had their say. There's no way the vote would have passed had they been part of the electorate. UKIP, from their rhetoric, always struck me as a watered-down version of the BNP; Nigel Farage just seemed like a phony used-car salesman with a cheesy cheshire-cat smile. (I also don't know how someone who supposedly hates Europe so much is a MEP - that always struck me as oddly hypocritical.) All my friends in the UK were and still are devastated that the Brexit vote passed.


    The final vote happens in Parliament this week, doesn't it?

    Stepping out the back way, hoping nobody sees...

  • Small technicality - only a simple majority is required for articles of impeachment to advance out of the House of Representatives; however, as you correctly said, it requires a 2/3 supermajority in the Senate for conviction and removal of a president (or vice president) from office.


    I was very sad when Brexit passed. I was still living in the UK when all that nonsense was being discussed. I wish PM Cameron had lowered the voting age to 16 for this vote, the same way the vote for Scottish Independence was lowered just for that issue - votes like this impact the young the most; they ought to have had their say. There's no way the vote would have passed had they been part of the electorate. UKIP, from their rhetoric, always struck me as a watered-down version of the BNP; Nigel Farage just seemed like a phony used-car salesman with a cheesy cheshire-cat smile. (I also don't know how someone who supposedly hates Europe so much is a MEP - that always struck me as oddly hypocritical.) All my friends in the UK were and still are devastated that the Brexit vote passed.


    The final vote happens in Parliament this week, doesn't it?

    Thanks for the correction about the impeachment process.


    Your potted analysis of the brexit situation, and UKIP/Farage, is so concise and spot-on I have little to add (I believe the parliamentary vote is 11 December). And yes, he has happily drawn down a healthy salary as an MEP, while doing very little work and barely showing up for any business. Point this out to his acolytes and they actually, genuinely, defend him by saying that he's simply showing how corrupt and ineffective the system is. Really, I'm not kidding you. As with Trump and his disciples, I sometimes think Farage could publicly kill or maim someone in the street, and his supporters would find some way of morally contorting themselves into justifying and defending his actions.


    We really have drifted into a rank situation where blustering, bullish, unsophisticated authority figures who spout divisive bile, seem to lack basic humanity and thrive on hatred of otherness, are gaining massive popularity and support. I never thought we would see such a large-scale return to this in my lifetime. As I said earlier, I am generally an optimistic person but have now reached the point of genuinely fearing that half the world is sleepwalking into fascist dictatorship.

    Abandon all reason

  • And yet the EU could have avoided the Leave vote with one simple action. Remove the lie that is the free movement of people. If it's free, how come the movement is all one way, East to West? And it's not just the UK that is affected. People in Athens have had to move out (Westward!) because of people moving from the east taking their jobs (for less money) and pushing accommodation costs up. I know. I've spoken to them.


    Realists know that there are upsides and downsides to being in the EU. I swung between the sides a couple of times in the run up to the vote, and not because I was listening to the opinions of either side. Simply because there are a lot of factors to consider. At least, unlike some remainers, I didn't simply choose to go with the status quo.


    Realists also know, however, that we already lack infrastructure to accommodate our own people, and even lack the resources to keep up with internal demand, so realistically, how do we accommodate 100000 extra people a year? If you have a quick, easy solution, we're all ears. And before someone shouts the old "racist" cry, may I just point out, Europeans are all the same race. That "remainers" accusation has always puzzled me.


    Apparently, we have to have free movement of people if we have free movement of goods and services. Why? I can't buy an Audi without allowing a German to move here? Really? Does that make ANY sense?


    There's a world (literally) of difference between voting an egotistical madman as US president (and frankly it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't run for re-election, he's ticked the box in his list of goals: Become US President.) and voting for an end to some distant undemocratic organisation's political dogma. There are upwards of 200 countries in the world, and only about 10% of them are in a massive club that has stockpiled food while large areas of the world starve, tried to enforce uniformity where it does not belong, enforce ill-thought out health and safety rules (We now have to have daytime running lights on new cars, as a result of which, cars driving at night with no lights on has never been higher, as drivers forget due to the glow from the front of the car, I've even seen 2 police cars on separate occasions at around 4 - 5 am with no lights.). Seems to me many of the others (Canada, South Korea, Japan, etc.) are doing OK.


    You wouldn't stay in a bad marriage because it was economically better, would you?


    (Oh, and while we're on about lies that people believe, there is no such thing as renewable energy)

    Ian


    Putting the old-fashioned Staffordshire plate in the dishwasher!

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    Donald Trump wants to be America's dictator. He cares not one bit about our country, it's laws or its citizens. It's a scary reality, so hold on because we're in for a bumpy ride.

    A scary reality it is. What scared me even more was how similar the early presidency of that man was to the (fictional) events portrayed in Sinclair Lewis' It Can't Happen Here. He wrote that in 1935, by the way. I'm not saying that Trump is like the dictator Lewis used as a blueprint for his novel, but as I said, the story told in the book screamed "Trump/Bannon" to me.


    Remove the lie that is the free movement of people. If it's free, how come the movement is all one way, East to West?

    The fact that more people move from A to B than from B to A does not prove that free movement is a lie.

    I can't buy an Audi without allowing a German to move here? Really? Does that make ANY sense?

    It doesn't make sense because it is wrong. You can buy an Audi without allowing a German to move to the UK. There is no law as to that. With the UK outside the EU and the common market it will simply become more expensive as tariffs will be raised on that. Well, at least you are allowed to buy an Audi; I don't know whether you can (no offence intended).