JON KIRKMAN - Genesis: ...And The Lamb, Lies Down, On Broadway - book review

  • Christian

    Changed the title of the thread from “JON KIRMAN - Genesis: ...And The Lamb, Lies Down, On Broadway - book review” to “JON KIRKMAN - Genesis: ...And The Lamb, Lies Down, On Broadway - book review”.
  • Thanks, Christian. Had I not read the review, I may have been tempted to buy it. Money well saved, it seems.


    Ergo, if someone has the temerity to charge over seventy sovereigns for a book, they should make damn sure they get their facts right (what were they thinking enlisting the help of the editor of The Waiting Room fanzine? And why was Steve Hackett asked to make such a notable contribution to the book? Out of the five of them, he was the biggest detractor of The Lamb.).

  • Well, Hackett has not done much detraction in this book, so I would suggest that argument is missing the point here.


    As for "why so-and-so", the answer is likely to be "because they were up for it and ready to contribute". Which is, with the exception of that he-wit, not necessarily a bad thing. And it is not terrible that Kirkman has no soundbites from messieurs Gabriel, Collins, Rutherford or Banks. Remember, Kirkman's aim has never been to "tell the one, true and definitive history of The Lamb", but to show the reader what "it was like to experience a Genesis Lamb show live". For this, it is probably much better to get people from the fringe to tell their story. The people in the eye of the storm are frequently the least suited to talk about its impact (that passage from Chapter & Verse comes to mind where, circa Foxtrot or Selling, someone from the audience tells Steve quite excitedly that, at the end of Supper's Ready, they saw God - and he replies: "Great. So you saw God. I was trying to get the notes right").

    ...cried a voice in the crowd.


  • Well, Hackett has not done much detraction in this book, so I would suggest that argument is missing the point here.

    It's not an argument, though. It's just a simple fact :) although he does seem to be exploiting the misconception that he is the saviour of all things Genesis at the moment so I guess his willingness to contribute to this book is just another notch on the old bedstead.


    And yes, I recall Steve talking about "freaked out chicks" :huh:claiming to have seen God during Supper's Ready in Hugh Fielder's excellent Book Of Genesis.


    But regarding the reader being able to vicariously experience the Lamb show through the recollections of those who were on "the fringe", I don't think that you can get better than the many bootlegs out there, most of which seem to paint a much more generous picture of how well the album was received than the members of the band would have us believe. For me, the perfect combo is listening to The Lamb live through a pair of headphones with Armando Gallo's From One Fan To All Others on my lap.

  • You're being too harsh on Steve again. Yes, I remember comments about "nightmarishly long sides" (Supper) and "red colour across a painting" (Pete's busy vocals on The Lamb), but the Fielder book is nearly forty years old now. I don't know how old you are, but from own experience people's opinions are likely to change occasionally over such a long timespan. That doesn't necessarily have to be a shameful thing and there doesn't have to be an agenda, either. These days I can listen to Michael Jackson or the last few MOR Alan Parsons albums and actually enjoy it. If someone had told me in my youth I would have laughed.

  • Yes, someone does seem to be grinding a mighty big axe re. Hackett :)


    I kind of like the "red colour across a painting" comment, having often thought how nice it'd be to hear an entirely instrumental version of the Lamb.

  • But regarding the reader being able to vicariously experience the Lamb show through the recollections of those who were on "the fringe", I don't think that you can get better than the many bootlegs out there, most of which seem to paint a much more generous picture of how well the album was received than the members of the band would have us believe.

    ... than all members of the band would have us believe... those sodding five detractors of their own work.


    Anyway, you may be right if you are only after the sound. For the sound and the stage show you would better turn to re-stagings of The Lamb by The Musical Box. And where would you go to hear about the roadie's experience or the memories of the album art designers...?

    The book is worth having, though perhaps not quite for the amount I paid. It does not do the trick all on its own, but neither does Holm-Hudson's book.


    As I realize that this is a debate I'm having with my own review once removed, as it were, I begin to doubt the point of the debate.

    ...cried a voice in the crowd.


  • Great review by Martin Klinkhardt..

    i found in the book that Jon Kirkman in coversation with Dale Newman says that the last "Lamb" show was Besancon on 22 May 75

    and its correct, but the tour dates list By Alan Hewitt are with some mistakes.

    when Paul Russell great Book "Live Guide 1969-1975: Play Me My Song" came out a group of collectors

    discussed some incorrections.Over the years some great collectors like Mel Huang , V warncke ,Mino Profumo..and

    some others.. helped to clarify some doubts.


    1-14.December .1974 The Market Square Arena Indianapolis

    This show never happened, Mel huang said about the Kansas show 14. december :

    "this is incredibly doutfull..just look at it geographically" because on 13 they play N jersey

    and on the 15 th in Montreal.i talked in 2006 with a fan that saw the Kansas 1.FEb.75 show

    and told me that the Kansas 74 show never happened..and we found a photo of the Tape of the Kansas

    show taken at "Farm Studios" and the date is 1.FEb.75 .i alsohave a review of the show and a copy of the ticket.


    2- Last European "lamb" dates:

    8.5.75 The Sports Palace Antwerp(?)Belgium

    9.5.75 The Stadthalle Bremen(?) Germany

    10.5.75 The Ostseehalle Kiel Germany

    11.5.75 The Grugahalle Essen Germany

    12.5.75 Rhein am Main Halle Wiesbaden Germany

    13.5.75 The Stadthalle Bremen Germany

    15.5.75 The Patinoire Rheims France

    18.5.75 The Velodromo Anoeta San Sebastian Spain

    20.5.75 The Porte de Versailles Paris France

    21.5.75 The Palais des Grottes Cambrai France

    22.5.75 Palais des Sports Besancon France

  • You're being too harsh on Steve again. Yes, I remember comments about "nightmarishly long sides" (Supper) and "red colour across a painting" (Pete's busy vocals on The Lamb), but the Fielder book is nearly forty years old now. I don't know how old you are, but from own experience people's opinions are likely to change occasionally over such a long timespan. That doesn't necessarily have to be a shameful thing and there doesn't have to be an agenda, either. These days I can listen to Michael Jackson or the last few MOR Alan Parsons albums and actually enjoy it. If someone had told me in my youth I would have laughed.

    Opinions change with time, true. And Steve is welcome to his opinions - indeed, Rick Wakeman famously revised his opinions on Tales From Topographic Oceans in recent years and is much more accepting of the album now. What I feel with regards to Steve's comments, though, has little to do with opinion. He said that the album happened despite him and not because of him. He felt that Peter was out of his depth, comparing it to Rush trying to write a concept album based around a book by Dickens (completely overlooking the fact that the setting of New York city is wholly academic).


    Listening to the album, it's very much a case of 'Genesis featuring Steve Hackett' and unsurprisingly he saw Peter's leaving the band as the opportunity to start his solo career. Proof, if any where needed, that he was something of a stone alone within Genesis.


    These days, it's different; certain fans see him as the holder of the torch where all things Genesis are concerned so it's very convenient for him to be seen as having nothing but praise for the music with which he was involved some 42 years ago.


    It's a shame you see my assessment as "harsh" but I call it how I see it.

  • I'd suggest that maybe we can take the discussion about Steve Hackett and The Lamb somewhere else. Doesn't have all that much to do with Kirkman's book...

    ...cried a voice in the crowd.


  • I'd suggest that maybe we can take the discussion about Steve Hackett and The Lamb somewhere else. Doesn't have all that much to do with Kirkman's book...

    Suggestion noted but the issue is related. Surely you're not positing that we stay strictly on topic without any deviation whatsoever? Besides which, if I set up a thread about Steve Hackett and The Lamb who knows how many people might get offended :rolleyes:

  • Having said that, I would love to hear what others think about Kirkman's book - preferably others who have read it.

    You'd have to find fans who have seventy-odd notes to spend on a book telling them stuff they can find out for free. The list will be short.

  • I'd rather talk about the book with those few people because with them this could be an interesting discussion with people who do know what they're talking about. As it is it's just you detracting a book you've never read one single measly page of.

    ...cried a voice in the crowd.


  • Thank you for this detailed review, martinus (I assume you wrote that review)!


    I was thinking about buying the book, but it seems like there is not enough reason to spend quite an amount of money for such a book, so I will skip that.