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US election live: outrage grows over ‘hateful’ Puerto Rico comments at Trump Madison Square Garden rally

Congressional Hispanic Caucus joins Harris, Biden and others in condemning rhetoric at rally where one speaker called Puerto Rico an ‘island of garbage’

www.theguardian.com

This 'rally' which opened with a 'comedian' calling the entire island of Puerto Rico a 'floating island of garbage'. led to JD Vance saying people should 'stop being offended'. He even disputes whether the joke is racist.

In that case he can stop being offended by Trump supporters being called Nazis.

It's a sad measure of the state of politics, and an entrenched tribalist electorate, that trump is pretty much level with Harris in national polling averages and leading in 3 swing states. I get that his die-hard supporters are at best not bothered by this stuff, at worst celebrate it. But for more moderate voters to not be turning against him en masse... it's depressing.

This man outright lied in 20/21 about "winning" and perpetuated that lie to the point of causing major problems for many people in an attempt to trample US democracy and the constitution into the dirt. On the basis of that alone he should be denied any chance of power. But this seems to have been forgotten or pushed aside including, disgracefully, by the media who are yet again giving him a free pass. How and why does this keep happening?

If he's elected again, which currently can't be ruled out, he will be even worse.

Quote from Backdrifter

But for more moderate voters to not be turning against him en masse... it's depressing.

If he's elected again, which currently can't be ruled out, he will be even worse.

Living here, it's frightening. That the race between Harris and Trump continues to be this close, I am depressed, scared, angry, and disappointed as are most of the people I know who are still sane. What I am struggling with even more is that all 3 of my siblings are voting for him. It's pointless to try and talk to them about it. They think I'm the crazy one. They believe the propaganda that all the mainstream media is lying to them, that the US government is totally corrupt, that trump is not part of the system and therefore can't be controlled or corrupted by it. He is the only one who can fix the system. It's even worse when they bring Jesus into the discussion.

All of that has been around since 2016, when I could maybe understand people falling for it and voting for him (if and only if I was being generous). But after his miserable response to the COVID pandemic as President, after the Big Lie of the stolen election in 2020 and all 62 failed court cases to overturn the election, after the Jan 6, 2021 insurrection and all its ugliness, after his immature behavior on Biden's inauguration day, after his 34 felony convictions, after all the foul, disgusting, and threatening things he has said since, not to mention his increasingly bizarre behavior, I can't understand nor forgive anyone voting for him this time.

I assume as a Democrat I am expected to be all about love and inclusion, but right now I hate my siblings.

Quote from Backdrifter

It's a sad measure of the state of politics, and an entrenched tribalist electorate, that trump is pretty much level with Harris in national polling averages and leading in 3 swing states.

Quote from Joey

all 3 of my siblings are voting for him. It's pointless to try and talk to them about it.

It's dreadful, and as an expat living in the US with little kids and a very long, uncertain path to permanent residency ahead, it's acutely uncomfortable witnessing the whole spectacle.

It is also interesting though. He's successfully created a siege mentality among a big enough chunk of people that they can't simply be dismissed and with the backing of the enormously wealthy self-interested and a few useful idiots in power, they pose a genuine threat to the idea of American democracy. The above comments highlight the cultish nature of his adherents.

It's a stark illustration in real time of how things can get really bad - how autocrats get where they get, how whole demographics can be subjected to hate - and hopefully as the next few weeks play out, won't transpire to be a study in how bad things can really get. The worst cynic might say who cares, they're all the same. I don't think that's true here (and it certainly wasn't when it was Bush v Gore), and I do want to believe that given the right opportunity good ideas from outside America (personal picks: universal healthcare, public transit, gun control, not being at war, the metric system, warnings on cigarette packs, maternity leave) will eventually permeate through the wall of weapons-grade capitalism and rugged individualism.

Quote from Joey

Living here, it's frightening. That the race between Harris and Trump continues to be this close, I am depressed, scared, angry, and disappointed as are most of the people I know who are still sane. What I am struggling with even more is that all 3 of my siblings are voting for him. It's pointless to try and talk to them about it. They think I'm the crazy one. They believe the propaganda that all the mainstream media is lying to them, that the US government is totally corrupt, that trump is not part of the system and therefore can't be controlled or corrupted by it. He is the only one who can fix the system. It's even worse when they bring Jesus into the discussion.

All of that has been around since 2016, when I could maybe understand people falling for it and voting for him (if and only if I was being generous). But after his miserable response to the COVID pandemic as President, after the Big Lie of the stolen election in 2020 and all 62 failed court cases to overturn the election, after the Jan 6, 2021 insurrection and all its ugliness, after his immature behavior on Biden's inauguration day, after his 34 felony convictions, after all the foul, disgusting, and threatening things he has said since, not to mention his increasingly bizarre behavior, I can't understand nor forgive anyone voting for him this time.

I assume as a Democrat I am expected to be all about love and inclusion, but right now I hate my siblings.

It's amazing he can say he's the opposite of a Nazi, when his behaviour, as you describe accurately, is almost exactly how Hitler behaved. I wonder why his followers believe his "Make America Great Again" nonsense, he had 4 years and achieved nothing. Why will it be different this time?

As an only child, married to someone with 6 siblings (1 deceased, 3 we never have contact with) I can say siblings are overrated. You are not alone in your situation, there is another (now inactive) member here who doesn't speak to his for exactly the same reason as you.

Quote from foxfeeder

I wonder why his followers believe his "Make America Great Again" nonsense, he had 4 years and achieved nothing. Why will it be different this time?

To the first part, they default to blaming "the deep state" for thwarting all the 'good' he tried to do. It's never entirely clear who this 'deep state' is/are, or what precisely they did, which is useful vagueness when it comes to attributing blame/obstruction. The phrase was keenly taken up by Johnson and Truss, both of whom invoked "the deep state" to explain their valiant failures (Truss of course also invoked that cabal of snarling extreme leftists, the... er... banking sector).

To the second part, why will it be different this time - he's suggesting various measures such as prosecuting his 'enemies' which makes his supporters think he's going to be extremely tough clamping down on any dissent or obstruction, and therefore there'll be no barriers to whatever extreme policies he wants to implement.

Quote from foxfeeder

I wonder why his followers believe his "Make America Great Again" nonsense

They also believe the government is controlling the weather. They are brainwashed.

Quote from thewatcher

They also believe the government is controlling the weather. They are brainwashed.

Oh christ I'd forgotten that, or at least expunged it from my brain.

Among too many other examples that one demonstrates the tragically now-firmly established principle that you can say anything and it doesn't matter any more. Vance, MTG, trump etc, know they can say whatever deranged crap they like and it will be swallowed whole - the overriding example of course being the "stolen election". I've also seen a different take on this principle: when some of trump's worse pronouncements are called out, his supporters often retort that he didn't say them. These are things he's said in public, whether on tv interviews or at rallies. Occasionally they counter that he's been misunderstood, his words distorted, taken out of context, etc. But frequently it's a simple "he didn't say that" - and that's it, solved, rebutted, and in their own heads they now 100% believe he didn't say it. It's hard to work out how to fight that; I'm not sure you can.

I completely get what Joey means. In your place I too would be deeply unnerved by how close they're polling. I have three wonderful siblings and beyond the standard childhood "it was HIS fault!" stuff we've always got on and still have a great laugh together. Over the years I've increasingly come to feel fortunate when I've seen the tense relationships some friends have with their siblings, in some cases leading to communication ending entirely (in one case politics was a contributing factor). I'm happy to be able to say I simply can't imagine that situation with my family so I can understand how horrible it is for you Joey.

Quote from foxfeeder

It's amazing he can say he's the opposite of a Nazi, when his behaviour, as you describe accurately, is almost exactly how Hitler behaved. I wonder why his followers believe his "Make America Great Again" nonsense, he had 4 years and achieved nothing. Why will it be different this time?

As an only child, married to someone with 6 siblings (1 deceased, 3 we never have contact with) I can say siblings are overrated. You are not alone in your situation, there is another (now inactive) member here who doesn't speak to his for exactly the same reason as you.

Yesterday when Trump said 'I'm not a Nazi! I'm the opposite of a Nazi'! he said in that wheedling, slightly high pitched tone he gets when he thinks he's trying to make a 'joke'. That could actually have been a cue for him to attempt to disavow Nazism, Hitler & everything they stood for. He didn't and he can't,

Meanwhile here is an article on what these people want to do to the economy.

Trump supporter exposes plan to crash US economy and 'rebuild society in MAGA’s image'

Quote from foxfeeder

As an only child, married to someone with 6 siblings (1 deceased, 3 we never have contact with) I can say siblings are overrated. You are not alone in your situation, there is another (now inactive) member here who doesn't speak to his for exactly the same reason as you.

Quote from Backdrifter

I completely get what Joey means. In your place I too would be deeply unnerved by how close they're polling. I'm happy to be able to say I simply can't imagine that situation with my family so I can understand how horrible it is for you Joey.

Thank you for your understanding and support. I've been struggling with this for a while and your words help. At least for the time being, I need to disengage from my siblings.

Oh, I do hope Trump loses, and it's hard to know what "news" is true and what isn't these days, but I hope this is true: Why Elon Musk thinks he'll be screwed if Trump loses — and he may be - Alternet.org

Well, it seems the Conservatives have learned nothing. They've chosen Liz Truss mk 2 as their new leader. True, Jenrick wasn't a great alternative, lacking the understanding of Police procedure, let alone the ability to know when he knows all there is to know. (Rumsfeld's old adage comes to mind), but Badenoch (which sounds like a woke description of Enoch Powell), to my mind, is memorable for one thing: sacking the Post Office chairman for trying to do the right thing. Hopefully the public won't forget, though given her talent for foot-mouth interfacing, it may not matter.

Today trump said:

“And I said, first lady, first lady see this is a little bit of a weave, you see those stories, first lady book boom, but you can always bring it back when it comes to a time when it doesn't meet at the bottom, then it's time to say let's not do this shit anymore. We won't do this anymore. But so what happened…”

How can people vote for that? How can it be so close?

In a twitter thread mocking that stream of babbling shit a trumpoid countered with "Well at least he talks like a human being." It was highly amusing to see the barrage of responses expressing concern at the state of the alleged human beings this guy hangs out with. My favourite comment was someone saying trump talks "like an alien trying to fit in on Earth".

An attempt to defend him by someone saying he can at least speak off the cuff while Harris needs scripts was met with someone pointing out he emitted this nonsense with an autocued script.

Quote from Backdrifter

“And I said, first lady, first lady see this is a little bit of a weave, you see those stories, first lady book boom, but you can always bring it back when it comes to a time when it doesn't meet at the bottom, then it's time to say let's not do this shit anymore. We won't do this anymore. But so what happened…”

Ok... So I would never, not ever vote for this. Trump is bad, the interests he represents are abhorrent. But the quote reads almost like a snippet from the last chapter of Ulysses and as such, I can't help but find some small modicum of enjoyment in it. I mean, it's so ridiculous.

For me, the nanosecond it became public knowledge that he asked the governor of Georgia to "find" 11k votes, it should have been all over. The fact that it wasn't, and that he has a chance of winning even now, means that there are much bigger problems than Trump at play. Misinformation and dirty money are deadly.

I've taken a road trip through rural parts of the northeast this week. The Harris/Walz and Trump/Vance signs are ubiquitous. It's too easy to lampoon the MAGA hat wearing rally attendees who believe hurricanes are tools of the Washington elite, but I think there are just legions of disaffected people pissed at someone or something and if you interact with them in a coffee shop or a grocery store or on the street they'll almost always be understanding and friendly and probably go out of their way to help you, and without toxic misinformation they might be able to make different choices.

I don't know. It's complex, I don't understand it well and I wish there was a simple fix. A massive Harris majority would be a step in the right direction.

An american friend put it quite succinctly, Obama was what gave us Trump, the US elected the first black president and half of the country lost their collective mind. I think he had a point, and I think it is unbelievably sad.

Quote from Fabrizio

An american friend put it quite succinctly, Obama was what gave us Trump, the US elected the first black president and half of the country lost their collective mind. I think he had a point, and I think it is unbelievably sad.

That might be a contributing factor but, and I'm saying this as an observer from afar, when HRC was nominated my heart sank and I had the first glimmerings of the possibility trump might win. Not that I had any major problem with HRC in herself, but I sensed the electorate would have had enough of the Clinton brand and trump, as repulsive as he is to most reasonable people, would provide a seemingly gutsy alternative.

Plus there was something in the air in 2016 which made certain constituencies feel their voices weren't being heard and they sought ways of addressing this. To many Americans, trump apparently provided the means of this. Add in the intense polarisation and growing tribalism in political discourse that was evident at that time (and deeply entrenched now) and which was fuel to trump's fire.

Let's hope my generation, or any generation, will put it right today. That's all. I'm not optimistic.

But the stuff about people ' not being heard' - Trump didn't hear them either. He used them. All he ever cared about was himself and cutting taxes for millionaires.

Quote from FeelItComing

But the stuff about people ' not being heard' - Trump didn't hear them either. He used them. All he ever cared about was himself and cutting taxes for millionaires.

Yet they still vote for him, still believing he cares for them. It's tragic.

It seems incredibly close with a lot of results already in. How sad.

At time of writing, currently no way of calling it yet. States largely going the predicted way so the key swing states will settle it. Yes, it's appalling that it's this close given one of the candidates is such a colossal sack of shit as trump.

Anyway, it's nearing 3.30am here and I have stuff to do tomorrow so must switch off the TV coverage and leave it there to see what awaits in the next few hours. 😬