GENESIS - Duke's 40th anniversary (28th March 2020)

  • Except that Mike wrote "Alone Tonight," not Phil. ;)


    Songs I liked right away were TIOA, BTL, Duchess, MOOT and even Misunderstanding. I had to warm up to most of the rest over time (especially Tony's songs). Of all Genesis songs, PDA has made one of the longest leaps from my not liking it very much to liking it a lot.

    Sounds like you had a similar experience to me in your liking of that album . I think it was the same for a lot of fans. The album like most of the others is a masterpiece.


    I must have noticed about AT at some point but forgot.. I was also wrong about thinking that I thought it should have been on PC album. I couln't have . Phil's first album came out after Duke. AT I felt was very ungenesis at the time and it does sound very Phil Collinsish so I must have thought that over the following years. I'm getting old!!

    Edited once, last by thefarmer ().

  • I was also wrong about thinking that I thought it should have been on PC album. I couln't have . Phil's first album came out after Duke.

    But I think he had a load of songs ready ahead of Duke but held them over for FV. Isn't there famously a disagreement between Banks and Collins about that? PC says he offered up In The Air but they rejected it, while TB says he never mentioned it.

    Abandon all reason

  • But I think he had a load of songs ready ahead of Duke but held them over for FV. Isn't there famously a disagreement between Banks and Collins about that? PC says he offered up In The Air but they rejected it, while TB says he never mentioned it.

    yes I saw the interview sure that's right. Phil did have a lot of songs ready before Duke I don't think he had the intention to do a solo album I think he just wrote because he felt like doing so and suddenly found he had more songs than Genesis could use. His divorce and his his feeling of loneliness has been well documented, though I don't think I was aware of it when Duke was released and none of would have had any idea what the Phil Collins sound was because FV wasn't out. I did certainly come to feel that AT would have been better placed on Phil solo whoever wrote it . It seems to me the song is about how Phil was feeling. Mike was happily married so I wonder where that song came from? Now I'm thinking about it I have an image of Mike saying " I have song I think will cheer you up, what do think??"

  • But I think he had a load of songs ready ahead of Duke but held them over for FV. Isn't there famously a disagreement between Banks and Collins about that? PC says he offered up In The Air but they rejected it, while TB says he never mentioned it.

    I wasn't aware there was a dispute, but I have a very strong memory of Tony saying that Phil brought in the air tonight as a demo but they rejected it, and that ITAT "could have been a Genesis song". So if there is a disagreement maybe it's the other way round from what you said? I can't remember where I saw or heard this so it's entirely possible I'm wrong.


    After I read that I've always thought of Mama as a kind of attempt to recapitulate the success of ITAT in band form.

  • Further to previous comment...i have heard Phil says he played them ITAT and was rejected. Tony has disagreed with this and says it was never played...but did bring PDA and Misunderstanding

    One of rock and rolls great fall outs! Although can't see TB throwing ant TV's out the window! 😂

  • I also prefer Duke but then again, Abacab was a really important album for the band. I also do like the fact these two albums are so different.


    But imagine it was 1980/81. You heard Duke, you like it and then Phil comes our with Face Value, which muste have felt like music from another planet for Genesis fans ...

    ... make tomorrow today!

  • I wasn't aware there was a dispute, but I have a very strong memory of Tony saying that Phil brought in the air tonight as a demo but they rejected it, and that ITAT "could have been a Genesis song". So if there is a disagreement maybe it's the other way round from what you said? I can't remember where I saw or heard this so it's entirely possible I'm wrong.


    After I read that I've always thought of Mama as a kind of attempt to recapitulate the success of ITAT in band form.

    In my mind it's very much the case that TB claims PC didn't offer it up, whereas PC insists he did but the other two rejected it, as per the above post from Simon1967.


    By the way, dispute was probably too strong a word, more a lighthearted disagreement.

    Abandon all reason

  • I also prefer Duke but then again, Abacab was a really important album for the band. I also do like the fact these two albums are so different.


    But imagine it was 1980/81. You heard Duke, you like it and then Phil comes our with Face Value, which muste have felt like music from another planet for Genesis fans ...

    A fair few of them, probably but not all.


    I liked Duke straight away on release, and thought FV was pretty good and felt justifiably diffrent from Genesis, as it should be. Then I really liked the different approach on Abacab though most of my fellow Genesis fan friends disagreed.

    Abandon all reason

  • i always think about how when FV came out it was a side project and initially it was only really listened to by Genesis fans ...with a mixed reaction.

    Then ITAT took off and the rest is history...just imagine if it hadn't been a hit...may have all been very different

  • But imagine it was 1980/81. You heard Duke, you like it and then Phil comes our with Face Value, which muste have felt like music from another planet for Genesis fans ...


    A fair few of them, probably but not all.

    Well I was one of them . As I said previously it was a while to really get into Duke as a whole.

    i always think about how when FV came out it was a side project and initially it was only really listened to by Genesis fans ...with a mixed reaction.

    Then ITAT took off and the rest is history...just imagine if it hadn't been a hit...may have all been very different

    I seem to remember knowing and loving ITAT before FV came out (or at least before I heard it) and really looking forward to a " back to Genesis " album by PC, maybe ,full of atmospherics and tremendous drums. Already a massive fan of PG3 wondering what we would get. Then, an alien version of BTL , my reaction was WTF!! I'm no PC hater by the way , just to be clear , but was somewhat dumbfounded at the time. " A Genesis stable album, with horns!" Well not a Genesis album at all , a massive divergence from Genesis. Much more than all the other solo albums.

    Edited once, last by thefarmer ().

  • I get that, although it was the first new album they released after I became a fan a year or so before and that hasn't ever engendered any affection for it. (W&W wasn't new but was the most recent album when I became a fan, and it too hasn't worn well in my affections). Maybe in that sense it mirrors your experience in that Duke was their first new release for you and it was disappointing.


    Funny you should say that. The first album I bought as a full on fan was GENESIS. For me this album is tied with FGTR as their worst ever album. So I think we can see a theme developing...

  • I have always put Duke up there in the top 3 albums of theirs. Phil's singing voice finally begins to sound like himself here rather than fitting into what existed before, Tony's sound gets an update and songwriting becomes a bit more concise, and Mike has an album of lead guitar under his belt to begin to develop his style here.


    It sounds like they came together as a group here in the 3 man era. It's an interesting bit of conversation earlier in this thread regarding ATTWT vs Duke. I have always felt ATTWT a bit more disjointed in terms of the completeness of some of the songs, as if some were never fully developed into their full potential. I love the lush keys and overall atmosphere of that album, along with Phils take no prisoners drumming. That said, this one falls short of the more complete Duke album in my view.


    For anyone lucky enough to have seen the Duke tour, what a show! I can only imagine from the bootlegs and the tour video. The Duke Suite, what a brilliant piece of music. And what's great is that it was hidden within the album in somewhat plain sight. That, plus Man Of Our Times, is enough to push this into my list of great all time albums. Add in the rest and it's just icing on the cake.

  • For many question: in her 2016 autobiography, Phil said that In the Air Tonight was her first song written as a solo artist. Against All Odds was also a another song written during this period. Her first solo album was not in her plans until he was heard the demos at the president of Atlantic Records, Ahmet Ertegun. He loved the demos and the president proposed to Phil to recording a solo album and the rest was the history, her debut of her successful solo career.

  • For many question: in her 2016 autobiography, Phil said that In the Air Tonight was her first song written as a solo artist. Against All Odds was also a another song written during this period. Her first solo album was not in her plans until he was heard the demos at the president of Atlantic Records, Ahmet Ertegun. He loved the demos and the president proposed to Phil to recording a solo album and the rest was the history, her debut of her successful solo career.

    Minor point: if you are referring to Phil Collins or any other male person by a personal pronoun the correct word is 'him' 'or 'his,' not 'her' which is used to refer to females.

  • Minor point: if you are referring to Phil Collins or any other male person by a personal pronoun the correct word is 'him' 'or 'his,' not 'her' which is used to refer to females.

    I suspect they are using Google translate, and don't speak English.

    Ian


    There is a church bell

    That rings on the hour

    Filling the streets

    Stopping the world awhile

  • . I have always felt ATTWT a bit more disjointed in terms of the completeness of some of the songs, as if some were never fully developed into their full potential. I love the lush keys and overall atmosphere of that album, along with Phils take no prisoners drumming.

    I still prefer ATTWT to Duke but I always thought exactly this point from the minute I heard it. I would have loved to have heard some of the songs instrumental passages extended . Especially SIAJ and Undertow. I am only left to imagine what they could have been like.