Posts by Backdrifter

    I can only speak for myself. I listen to prog music and read fantasy novels mostly. I was turned away from so called "good books" at school. We read Heinrich Böll and Günter Grass in our German course, Graham Greene in our English course and Albert Camus in our French course and analyzed the stuff beyond the point of what was bearable. As I always enjoyed reading, I moved over to sci-fi and fantasy, which I enjoyed very much without being forced to analyze the plot. Fantasy is a great genre, if you pick the right authors. There are not so many, who are great. My favourites are Tolkien, Donaldson, Rothfuss, Robin Hobb and Peter Brett. The Dark Tower novels by Stephen King are killer. Almost all his books are killer.

    I combine certain books with certain albums. I got The Lord Of The Rings for christmas in 1979 together with the album Rumours by Fleetwood Mac. I read the whole book in the week after christmas and listened to Rumours constantly while reading. I read the book again exactly one year later and had Making Movies by Dire Straits on the whole time. So every time, I listen to one of these albums today, I get instant memories of certain scenes from the book.

    Like you I loved reading but didn't get along with the analysis in literature classes at school. But soon after, I grew to love a broad range of stuff - classics, modern, fiction and non-fiction - on my own terms.

    I tend to enjoy novels that play with the form, and take some kind of different approach from conventional narrative, some of my favourites being:

    A Clockwork Orange, Anthony Burgess

    Cloud Atlas, David Mitchell

    Changing Places, David Lodge

    The Damned United, David Peace

    The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time, Mark Haddon

    The Rain Before It Falls, Jonathan Coe

    Accident, Nicholas Moseley

    As well as sci-fi and fantasy another genre I never got along with was crime fiction, until I started on Ian Rankin's Rebus novels, to which I became addicted. I love the intelligent plots which are often rich with social and political aspects. Plus Edinburgh's my favourite city and I enjoy recognising the various locations.

    Is there a connection between the types of music some members of this board listen to, and the kinds of books they read?

    Even as a child, I never read Tolkien or Narnia books, they didn't interest me. Into adulthood, I've continued to struggle with sci-fi and fantasy literature. Various friends have lent me stuff but I've never got along with it. The closest I ever came was as a child I devoured the Dr Who novelisations, and in my teens enjoyed the Hitch Hikers books.

    Recently I've been re-reading an excellent book of interviews with Michael Gambon, very entertaining on the subject of acting. I've also been reading another non-fiction one, The Highland Clearances by John Prebble.

    I personally have to take some distance from songs or albums I over heard, to be able to enjoy them again but if doesn't bore you, more power to you. I wish I could listen to them relentlessly the way I used to.

    I've thought about this and I reckon there's an element of 'having it played to me'. Partly because of its video, Sledgehammer has been played so much, it became one of those songs I kind of get fed up of hearing because it's not me deciding to play it, even though I do like it. I don't know if that makes sense! It must be something along those lines as obviously there are loads of songs I have played countless times but i don't get fed up of those. But I think you're saying something different above, ie that you do have to have a break even from playing them yourself.

    Good to hear some appreciation for U2's No Line. I think it has some of their strongest songs for quite some time by that point. It was nice to read that Slowdancer also even got to like Zooropa. Daddy's Gonna Pay remains a real favourite for me, it's something you could play to many neutral listeners or non-fans who'd not realise it was U2. The live rendition of Dirty Day on the Zoo TV film is absolutely ferocious. I usually really appreciate when massively successful acts do a major right-angled turn like they did especially with Zooropa and more so the Passengers album. It's interesting to read in Brian Eno's diary that Original Soundtracks was always intended as an actual U2 album until their manager and the record company became very uneasy about how unrelated to their usual stuff it was, and feared they'd "confuse the fans". Eno was frustrated and commented in his diary, haven't hugely successful acts earned the right to go off the beaten path and do something different and challenging? Eventually the false band name was agreed as a compromise so it no longer seemed to be a U2 album and thus comforting the supposedly delicate and easily-baffled fans.

    Another thing they rarely get credit for is how innovative and well-designed their live shows are. Peter Gabriel has said in interviews that he'll often see a U2 show several times per tour as he always marvels at how interesting they are. The first tour I saw them on after my 'conversion' was the Zoo TV one and having already had my head turned by their new music, I had to then admire how they'd changed the stadium rock experience. I saw it a second time so I could fully encompass everything that was going on. It remains one of the high points of all my gig-going. And in that second show, their performance of Mysterious Ways and Bono's theatrics during it, were an absolute joy. I know he gets a lot of flack and even he acknowledges he can be a complete prick but the plain fact is, he is a natural-born rock star.

    My Madonna turning point came in about 1986, hearing Like A Virgin on the radio; obviously it was already out for 2-3 years before that and I'd heard it many times before, but hearing it that particular moment for some reason I suddenly tuned into what a good piece of pop music it is. Then I heard Express Yourself which I quite liked, and what finally did it was Live To Tell. From Like A Prayer onwards I became a firm fan and I agree that the 90s era, especially the albums you mentioned above OFTV, are her peak - she was producing some genuinely intelligent and interesting pop music by that point. After that she kind of cruised along and apart from another peak with the Confessions album (and a great tour behind it) her work has mainly been quite dull and way too in thrall to current R&B stars and styles, aside from the occasional good tune.

    Having seen her on stage a few times and many times on TV for the more recent tours, I've always found she's at her best when all the spectacle (enjoyable as it can be) is stripped away and she's just standing and singing - ie when she becomes simply the frontwoman of a band. I've always wished she'd challenge herself by just doing a very basic tour without all the paraphernalia, but she's said before there's little chance of this, which is a shame.

    It can't really be called WCD any more because it doesn't contain the ICD monstrosity. I call it "Fading Lights"

    Wasn't the album's working title Father & Son? Could that be a possible contender for your non-non-dancing version?

    Since being on these forums, it's really dawned on me that many fans really hate ICD. A "monstrosity" - my word! Me, I don't mind it.

    I was massively irritated by U2 up to and including Rattle & Hum. From the moment I saw the video of The Fly premiered on TV, I knew some major shift had occurred. From then, I bought their albums through the 90s and caught up with the earlier stuff which I still didn't much like apart from the odd few, but now viewed through much more accepting eyes. The stuff where they are regarded as having gone somewhat off-piste by many fans - Zooropa, Passengers, some of Pop, No Line - is my favourite U2 work (even the band say they think No Line was a mistake, and since that tour they have never revisited it).

    I had the rock fan's scepticism about Madonna for the first few years of her career, but gradually realised she was doing some very good-quality pop music and it re-activated my liking for pop.

    There are probably other examples; as Witchwood said above, I couldn't honestly say I actually detested any of these acts as that would be a complete 180, but certainly I found U2 very annoying and was at best indifferent to, at worst dismissive of, Madonna.

    Hmmm, never quite sure what to do with W&W in this respect as it's so low on my list and I only really like two or three tracks on the released version. But after mulling it over:

    Eleventh Earl Of Mar

    One For The Vine

    Blood on the Rooftops


    Unquiet Slumbers For The Sleepers

    In That Quiet Earth


    Inside & Out

    Trick would be:


    It's Yourself (the full second half minus the Los Endos intro bit)





    It's Yourself (part 1, segueing into)

    Los Endos

    - obviously some creative re-titling would need to be done for the two bits of IY.

    That link is very interesting, thanks for that. I'd often heard Firth referred to as Banks's first full solo composition, bar lyric contributions from MR, so was mildly surprised that Seven Stones and Time Table are suggested as solely his. That said, they do sound Banksy. Certainly I'd be unsurprised that someone who could write songs about mice and dinosaurs would write one about a wooden table.

    I'd heard Phillips contributed to Musical Box, but not Barnard. How likely is it that despite the album credits, AP and MB received any income from sales?

    I seem to remember reading that Hackett came up with the key change part at the end of Fly to lead into Broadway Melody. But I may be mis-remembering as I don't know where I got that from.

    We had a few discussions like this on the old board (I think I tried to list writers for FGTR-SEBTP and someone else made a Lamb thread) - it would be interesting to see if there was a way to look through the old posts.

    Thanks - I've incorporated your key-change comment and others' comments into an edited OP. Yeah I recall this discussion on the old board and this thread is my attempt to try recreating that, in the absence of accessing the defunct board.

    Another favourite band of mine is Radiohead and on a fan forum years ago someone posted a comment that they'd seen publishing info which listed individual writers of Radiohead songs even though their albums credit all songs to all, PG-era Genesis style. I wonder if such info exists for the Genesis band-credited material. Other bands adopting a similar approach are U2 and Coldplay who credit all songs to all but by various accounts it seems it's either Bono and The Edge or just Bono in the case of U2, and Chris Martin for Coldplay. Side note to the latter - when Brian Eno produced one of Coldplay's albums, as is his method he initially observed them at work and decided Chris Martin was dominating proceedings too much and physically barred him from the studio for a while, to allow the other three to express themselves a bit more in writing and developing songs. It led to what is in my view by far their best album, Viva La Vida.

    Returning to Genesis credits, I'd be very interested if anyone has any insights into credits for Trespass.

    I'd like to catch up on AP's work. Back in the 80s on vinyl I had Wise, Sides, 1984, Invisible Men and PP&PIII. I liked them all to varying extents, IM less so. That's it, that's the extent of my AP listening. Of those, Sides and 1984 are the best for me. Based on that, what would anyone recommend I listen to in order to further my AP enjoyment? Thanks.

    Lots I agree with, some I don't. I am a huge PG fan but I truly don't get the appeal of 1&2, little of those albums seemed to have remained after these decades and I would agree with you that they very much sound like an artist scrambling, trying to sort out things for himself, after probably have been stifled in a band dynamic. I agree the first two albums were essential for him to find out what he really wanted to be and that happened with 3&4. SO, again is imo a good album but, I have a general dislike for the music made during those years, the spirit and the sound and that applies to many artists. It seems virtually everybody, no matter their resume released their more commercial albums around that time. Also, I seem to remember Peter himself, after some financial problems was pressed to be more...'accesible'. Still, I think he did so tastefully. US is imo a masterpiece and an album I regularly go back to, finding it always very fresh. UP, well UP is simply thin and overcooked imo. It was rumored he had over a 100 songs to chose from when he released, it is bizarre the material is so weak imho, compared to his former releases. What was released afterwards hints imo at a end of the road kind of sign. Covers albums, orchestral albums are common symptoms, I hope we are not getting a Christmas album or an American songbook album with classics by Gershwin or Porter. I personally stopped waiting for new releases long ago. He is probably one of the artists I admire the most but I doubt he still has something relevant to say, let alone the desire to do it.

    Some very interesting comments. I agree about mid-to-late 80s albums, there was a particular kind of sound and feel in the air then and while even So has some of that seeping into it, it emerged in a lot more of a palatable way.

    That's a shame you're so down on Up - I couldn't resist that - but I do get that it's quite a divisive album and not high up on most fans' lists. But I found it slowly gave up its rewards with a bit of time; it certainly wasn't an instantly good listen but I don't find it thin at all, with the exception of Barry Williams.

    Yes, the covers and as I said the time spent ploughing back over So made me all the more fearful that he no longer has an album of original material in him. But I'd rather there be nothing at all than the Christmas album or Gabriel Sings Gershwin!

    I think the consensus on 1 and 2 is of a new solo artist finding his way. He really hit his stride on 3 and 4, but had to make his way through the inconsistent 1 and 2 to get there. You could probably get a decent composite album out of the best bits of 1 and 2. Humdrum is the standout track for me on 1, while I find 2 generally quite a bit more interesting as a whole - DIY, Mother Of Violence, White Shadow, Indigo and Exposure are all strong tracks for me.

    So has never really done it for me. I find that Red Rain, repetition and all, and Milgram's are the only ones that really hit home. I also agree with the earlier comment that while Sledgehammer is a good song, it became over-familiar through the years to the point it became dull. I'm not too keen on Us either, and thought that with Up he had gone back to some of the things that appealed to me in his older work, but in an up-to-date way.

    And now, here we are, nearly 16 years later.... I know he's a slow and meticulous worker, but as a fan I can't help feeling frustrated at the long drawn-out lack of new material. There have been mentions of things on the horizon over the years - references to new material being stockpiled, in one interview he said "30 new songs", at one point there was even a title - I/O. Then I heard talk of a stripped-down album and tour, a trio of him on vocals and piano, Danny Thompson on bass, Jed Lynch on drums, the idea being to produce simpler, more sparse music. I actually got excited about that! But have learned my lesson.

    The Scratch My Back album and tour, and the So retrospective stuff, were very frustrating. It made me wonder if he'd dried up and had to fall back on re-treading old ground, and we'd never see a new album of original material again. But there have been new songs, some good ones too. That at least is encouraging. I saw him give a talk in London in 2016, and when asked when a new album might be out, he said "I'm going to play it safe and say September. But I'm not going to commit to which year."

    I like the keyboard sounds on both this and the original, the big 'warp' of noise at the start and middle is one of my favourite TB moments. But I think PC overdoes the vocal, it's way too pantomimic, even for a track not meant to be taken very seriously.

    But thanks for the link, it was a good tour and a great setlist which gave me my one and only chance to see them do the whole of SR (listening to this I skipped through the tedious unfunny Romeo and Juliet introduction - PC just didn't have PG's knack of doing rambling introductions). Sanctuary Man is a real high point on this show.

    Hearing Encore Tour shows takes me back to seeing them on this tour at a large concrete cattle shed used for agricultural shows in a field in the English westcountry. There was still straw on the venue floor. We were then stranded amid the winding narrow country lanes while the tour trucks rumbled past us and we didn't get back to London until the following morning. We were just 17 and it was all a bit odd!

    On the SEBTP wikipedia page, it says Moonlit Knight was mainly Hackett/Gabriel, and repeats the claim made by others that Ordeal is all Hackett. I know I definitely read years ago it was part 1 SH, part 2 MR, and could have sworn it was a member of the band who said it, probably TB.

    Backdrifter, if you ask for recommendation for anything beyond Big Generator, I would go for Magnification, because it is so special. A complete orchestra replacing Rick Wakeman. Quite interesting with some great tracks on there. The Fly From Here Album is great, too. Talk would be the most obvious choice for me, if you like Trevor Rabin.

    Okay thanks - although of the post-BG albums you ranked Union, The Ladder, ABWH and Talk above that one? I saw a tour where they had an orchestra, I don't know if that coincided with Magnification. It was okay, but I generally prefer bands without orchestras.

    i have burned me a personal „EP“ of this suite.

    Well done - for my part, I've included it in that sequence as part of my Genesis compilation; see the 'Your Best Of Genesis' thread elsewhere. I love Submarine, a very simple and atmospheric track. I often wished they'd introduced some real unpredictability into their live sets and included something like this from time to time.

    Well, maybe I don't have it quite right.

    No, I suspect you probably do and that quote indicates as much and I now remember that. Certainly the first part does have that 3-man jam feel to it, but Hackett's typically economical lines suggest it was a 4-man jam. The other thing that had seemed to support the notion it was one of his was that in his pre-Genesis Revisited Every Which Way tours, it was one he did from time to time which made me think maybe it was one of his. Which has made me recall that, similarly, I'd heard Hairless Heart was one of his.