Posts by Backdrifter

    Not wanting to disrupt the Lady Lies thread I thought it'd be better to come here to pick up a topic that originated there and led to DecomposingMan asking this query about a reference I made to the "hasn't it" at the end of the vocal segment of Lovers Leap (I mistakenly said it was "isn't it"). Along with others here I'd noticed that in the 08 remaster this phrase had moved back a couple of bars into the start of the instrumental section, one of a number of changes I mentioned above. Some of us wondered why such a specific change had been made.

    The main point you're raising is that RW is either seen quite critically or fans aren't interested in him at all.


    On the critical bit, do you mean in relation to the CAS album and tour, or generally? Regarding CAS my perception is that many are not keen on the album, with some on this board even saying they've deliberately never listened to it, and/or don't regard it as Genesis. I think that's unfair, but understandable. A key long-standing member who was so identified with the band had gone, taking with him not just the lead face and voice but outstanding musicianship too. Any replacement would have a hard time following that and would likely struggle for fans' approval. That said, he and the album have their defenders. And there's also a feeling among some that he wasn't given enough of a chance, and that at least one more album with him might have led to a more established line-up and yielded some interesting results, which is where I personally stand.


    Regarding the notion that the 'vast majority' of fans aren't interested in his work, while it's not really possible to gauge what that many people think it probably is true, but it's likely true of their attitude to most of the various members' solo work as well. The global fanbase is probably mainly most interested in the trio's output as it constitutes the bulk of what's best-known and most popular, and they'd consequently have little or no knowledge of, or interest in, solo work beyond PC, M&tM and to a lesser extent PG.


    On this board we're not like that broad fanbase as we're interested in and have knowledge of the whole breadth of their work, we're a minority among fans globally, so we'll view aspects like RW's involvement differently. I get the sense many here have some regard, even affection, for him as he's officially in the Genesis 'family', had a very tough job and did his best but was ultimately not given much chance.

    I'm not sure how either, since the Zeppelin reunion hadn't happened at that point in time. I think Peter had already decided against any sort of reunion long before 2007.

    Yes it only occurred to me after that exchange that the LZ gig was in Dec 07, two months after the Genesis tour ended and three years after the Glasgow meeting, so I'm really missing what any potential connection there'd be.


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    What I'd love to know is what made him even think of bringing the idea up to the rest of them in the first place? From the way they all tell it Peter was the driving force behind them meeting up, and had he not seemed sincere I don't think the rest of them would have agreed to meet. And yet he seemed to arrive to the meeting already hesitant.

    Although bear in mind PC was the one saying in interviews that he'd be up for a 5-man reunion and that he'd love to be back behind the drums in that lineup. It seems a combination of the Archive work and PC's comments made PG start to think about it. I also remember PG saying how much he loved the Up tours and thoroughly enjoyed returning to live performance, so perhaps that was also in the mix and combining with the recent Genesis-related work. Given that Banks had come around to the idea it only needed PG to agree, so when he approached them it must have seemed pretty much a done deal. Hence the heated reaction to his "So we need to agree if we're doing this" in Glasgow.


    For someone with strong ideas and a clear sense of drive, he's often been described by the others as a very "um... er..." indecisive sort of person. That characteristic no doubt contributed to his he-will-he-won't wavering - Banks said PG never actually said a definite NO, but he certainly never said yes. I suppose you could technically argue he still might!


    Another factor might be his post-Up comments about leaping straight into another album. If the i/o title had already been mooted, that would have made it seem very imminent. If that was the case in his mind, it'd likely give him serious second thoughts about committing to even a small selection of Lamb shows and all the prep involved, let alone the perception of this forward-looking artist returning to old pastures.

    I can now hear it. For decades I heard it as an "aaaaahhhhh - something (lies?)" I'm wondering if it's one of those post-07 changes such as moving "Isn't it" in Lovers Leap, deadening the flute in IKWIL and the petulant 'hmmmph' thing at the end of Trick, etc.


    On another tangent on this one: I recently came across reference to a 1982 green flexidisc of this track live, given away with Flexipop magazine. The label has "Genesis Live" in the 3SL 'scribbled' style.

    You're inferring a lot from some meagre scraps.


    Anyway, this all belongs in the WCD album thread.

    The bubble-gum dance music, not the whole dance music genre. Novelty songs.

    I still don't get what you mean but never mind, I don't want to labour the point.

    I honestly thought all Genesis were really saying with 'We Can't Dance' was to acknowledge that at their age they couldn't be expected to make that sort of music.

    I agree there's less to it than suggested above. I've certainly not come across anything suggesting they were lampooning the Madonna dance-mix album title of 4 years previously. I read an interview in which PC said it was simply off the back of the prevalent dance music trend of the time, which suggested a way of playing up their "we know we're not cool" image, nothing more than that.

    Something I mentioned in another thread a couple of years back: in the instrumental run-out, about 05.25-05.30, there sounds like an 'aaaaaaaaaah' vocalisation ending with what sounds like 'eyes' or 'lies', it's quite mixed back. Other members bafflingly heard this as "you can't resist me". I wondered if it was a muffled "Aaaaaaaah, the lady lies". It's definitely not "you can't resist me" though. I think it was MoonlitKnight who said that whatever it is it's swamped by David Hentschel's "syrupy pudding production".

    The line 'you can dance' is from Into The Groove.

    It was indeed a lampooning towards all the dance music scene (the criticism was not directed to the whole genre but to the dance music that was hollow).


    They simply made up a world-play from the title of a remix album by Madonna from 1987 (You Can Dance) as a kind of answer or mockery (We Can't Dance).

    When did they say this, and what does "the dance music that was hollow" mean?

    I'm pretty certain when they got all 5 together, Peter didn't want to commit to a long tour and Phil was also on his I have to stay at home for the kids (even though they pretty muched moved not long after) so you had Peter wanting a one off, Phil not wanting to commit to more than a handful of shows and TS wanting a year long tour no doubt so that it would make enough money etc

    No, I'm completely certain it's as the band themselves described, in their own words, in Chapter & Verse (which included PC very clearly being the most enthusiastic about doing it).


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    Still..... If Nic were to replace Phil, they could technically do a Lamb Tour still in 2025 / 2027 if PG and rest wanted too.

    🤣

    Yours incorporates elements that are mentioned earlier in the thread, such as interruptions and woodland locations - the latter have certainly featured in mine.


    Bit harsh of your brother there.

    I checked the relevant passage in Chapter & Verse. PC says the option of the 4-man line-up was never under consideration. He too says he felt bad for SH over how the discussion turned out.


    Banks said that as soon as the Lamb tour idea was evidently not on, they decided to consider a trio tour and that the trio material is what he's most proud of. He also says "It would be strange for Steve to play the later material, I don't think he'd be keen to play I Can't Dance." I don't know if there's any record of the idea of his playing on an all-eras tour ever having been put to him.


    A couple of other bits from revisiting this section of the book: PC got the ball rolling on the lead-up to the 5-man meeting. Promoting Archive 1 made him think about a 5-man reunion, and in interviews he'd say he was up for it if the others were, but the main onus would be on PG. Those comments obviously got repeated and they penetrated PG's mind, causing him to say he'd be interested in a Lamb tour. MR and PC immediately thought this sounded good especially as the 75 Lamb tour had been frustrating and never quite worked as it should, so this would be a chance to fix that. Banks was the least interested, but came around to the idea.


    Banks said that after the Glasgow meeting (which was in fact Nov 04) PG hadn't ever said he was definitely not going to do the tour, he just never said he would do it! This left them with the notion it still might happen, but would now have to be after the 07 tour which was now being planned. But of course, it didn't. PC said that during 07 rehearsals it was clear the Lamb idea had now "fizzled out". He reiterated that he'd have loved to play drums behind a PG-led Genesis tour.

    I didn't know he had agreed to participate in one of the reunion tours and was given the cold shoulder after. Or maybe that's not what happened? Regardless I picked up on the same fairly direct hostility you did.

    I think it's a reference to what became the 07 tour. In 05 the five met (in Glasgow I think) to discuss taking The Lamb on tour. It was felt to be a done deal with the meeting a discussion of logistics etc. But PC's account is that PG opened with "We're here to discuss whether we're doing this" - ie, not when but if!


    PC describes how they instantly reverted to their old roles - TB & PG arguing, MR being the gentlemanly moderator, himself being lighthearted trying to defuse the atmosphere, SH off to one side being 'dark' and marginal.


    PG concluded that he couldn't (wouldn't?) do it, then left. Shortly after, SH left - sound familiar?! The trio decided to get DS & CT in and do the tour.


    I'm not sure if a 4-man + CT option was discussed. It would've focused on 70-77 of course, over which I'm sure many here would salivate. I think the trio didn't want to eliminate post-77, which seemed to mean no place for SH. Not sure if he'd been up for doing post-77 stuff but there's a potentially intriguing tour in some other universe.


    TB said he felt very sorry for SH over the outcome of that meeting.