Posts by Dr. John

I thought I would do a tally of the songs from the setlist to see how the Genesis catalogue was represented:

FGTR - 0 songs

Trespass- 1 song: Stagnation (snippet in IKWIL jam section)

Nursery Cryme - 0 songs

Foxtrot - 0 songs

SEBTP - 4 songs: DWTMK (snippet), IKWIL, Firth of Fifth (instrumental only), The Cinema Show (part of instrumental)

TLDDOB - 3 songs: TLDDOB (first two verses), The Carpet Crawlers (minus intro), Riding the Scree (snippet in The Cinema Show)

ATOTT - 0 songs

W&W - 2 songs: Eleventh Earl of Mar/In That Quiet Earth (snippet linking The Cinema Show to Afterglow), Afterglow

ATTWT - 1 song: Follow You, Follow Me

Duke - 5 songs: Behind the Lines (portion of intro), Duchess, Misunderstanding (once), Turn It On Again, Duke's End

Abacab - 0 songs

Genesis - 4 songs: Mama, That's All, Home By the Sea, 2nd Home By the Sea

IT - 5 songs: Invisible Touch, Tonight, Tonight, Tonight (short version), Land of Confusion, Domino, Throwing It All Away

WCD - 3 songs: No Son of Mine, I Can't Dance, Fading Lights (2 verses)

CAS - 0 songs

The surprise for me was the realization that there was nothing from ATOTT. I wonder if this is perhaps the only tour (with Phil) where this happened. The 2007 tour had both Ripples and Los Endos. The WCD tour had a couple of verses of Dance On a Volcano. Every tour before that had at least Los Endos I think.

Quote from foxfeeder

Fabulously thorough review from Dr John there, worthy of posting as a review on the main genesis news site, I'd say.

The One Show is a weekday night TV show in the UK on BBC 1 typically 7 - 7.30pm. Tony, Mike and Phil appeared on it the night before Together and Apart aired, as I recall, so I'd guess it was that which was referred to.

Thanks for the clarification about The One Show. And appreciate the feedback about my report. I had gleaned many bits and pieces from what people have posted so far, but I thought it might be helpful to be comprehensive in one post.

Having seen lots of videos from this tour so far, I went into last night's concert with what I hope were fairly realistic expectations. This was not going to be peak live Genesis, the way I experienced on previous tours. Phil can't drum and his singing range and strength is lower than before. At the same time, I also know that Genesis would never tolerate putting on a bad show and there is also the emotional meaning of seeing one of my favourite bands one more time.

Getting into Scotiabank Arena was surprisingly efficient. We went an hour early, expecting things to be slow and expecting line-ups. Instead, our vaccine passports and then our tickets were quickly scanned. We went through security screening in a few seconds. And so we were left with an hour of found time. The arena was mostly full, although there were definitely some empty seats. People were supposed to wear masks if they weren't drinking or eating. The reality was that a lot of people never wore their masks during the concert, so take notice if you have concerns.

There is no opening act and the band took the stage at about 8:15. The stage set-up is relatively simple. There is the bank of dominoes-eque lights above the stage that tilts, raises and lowers. There is a screen behind the band that combines live footage with videos, animation, and lighting effects. And there are additional lights over the main arena that are coordinated with the lights over the stage. The lighting effects were generally up to the usual Genesis standard. The videos and animation were OK. I felt the stuff for Domino (dominoes, masked people marching, toilet paper rolls) was kinda distracting. The amorphous animation and lights for Mama worked better, helping establish the mood. The most poignant lighting effect was when just Phil, Mike, and Tony were lit starkly for Fading Lights, hearkening back to when they performed this as just a trio for the WCD tour.

As expected, the musicianship was solid. While I question Tony's choice of voicing the Cinema Show lead line an octave lower, he otherwise remains the bedrock of Genesis's sound and it is always fun to watch his slight nodding as he performs. His keyboard sounds seem kind of the same as the 2007 tour, which means they are OK but not great. (Interestingly he got the second-longest ovation in the band intros, after Phil.) Mike remains accomplished on bass and I find his lead guitar playing more melodic now than back in the 80s. I find Daryl actually less busy than he once was, opting for some long bends at times instead of a frenetic run up the fretboard. His rendition of Firth of Fifth this tour is the most enjoyable for me of any of his versions, also because he is not using such a trebly tone. Nic is impressive on drums, competently handling the main grooves and many of Phil's classic fills from tours past (you will recognize these at key moments during Cinema Show, Firth of Fifth, Afterglow). What is missing is Phil's daring embellishments, although to be fair, Phil was not doing much of these by the 2007 tour.

Phil himself has improved since the beginning of the tour. Though his range remains limited, he was actually reaching a few times for Gs above middle C. He was also holding notes longer than earlier in the tour. Sometimes though he would clearly run out of breath and drop a few words in a lone sequence of lines as a result. He was also singing with what felt like more heft and conviction, noticeably on Mama, No Son of Mine. His tuning was also better - it was the first time he cleanly hit the E in "lies" from the intro of Moonlit Knight. And he didn't seem to muff any of Domino (but he did screw up the 3rd verse of Duchess, singing part of the second verse again). He also doesn't seem to be referring much to lyric sheets or prompters.

The back-up singers helped Phil out by sustaining the longer, higher notes. This generally worked and didn't take away from Phil's performance. At no point did it sound like someone else was singing Phil's leads. They also provided capable back-ups on the songs that needed them. I would have thought that professional back-up singers would have resulted in impeccable harmonies, but for songs like Carpet Crawlers, I found the harmonies not even as good as when Tony and Mike were providing them previously.

Phil seemed in good spirits overall, bantering with the crowd and cracking off-colour jokes (seemingly surprising the band with a reference to his son having been previously inside him and fortunately not ending up on the ceiling). He did his usual Genesis concert tricks - the Domino effect, etc. His mini tambourine routine is actually faster and more in time now compared to earlier versions.

In terms of the songs, here is my take on them:

Behind the Lines/Dukes End - solid, well-played, no different than last tour.

Turn It On Again - solid, Mike's guitar is a bit muddy, Phil pretty good on vocals, missed opportunity to really nail the lower harmony in the chorus.

Mama - surprisingly good, one of Phil's strongest vocals, even reaching to notes at the top of his current range, great use of lighting and animation effects.

Land of Confusion - also a pretty strong Phil vocal, very funny to watch Daryl and Mike ape the back-up vocals they were no longer singing.

Home By the Sea - one of the better videos (was it the previous one? I can't remember), good vocals by Phil.

Second Home By the Sea - solid all around, nice solo from Mike.

Fading Lights - clearly the people around me didn't care, a touching performance by just the trio.

Cinema Show - notable for a good job by Nic, inserting Phil's fills from Second's Out and the 2007 tour.

Afterglow - passionate vocal by Phil, nice to have the back-up singers replicate the aahs at the end, Nic includes the More Trouble Every Day fill.

That's All - acoustic-y version works well, with some nice soloing from Daryl.

TLLDOB - I know some aren't so keen on this mellowed-out version, but I don't mind it and it was a thrill to hear thousands join in on the refrain.

Follow You, Follow Me - a simple song that worked well in the acoustic format.

Duchess - so glad it was kept in the setlist, another strong vocal from Phil even though he messed up the third verse.

No Son of Mine - good performance by everyone overall.

Firth of Fifth - Tony seemed briefly out-of-synch in the keyboard solo, otherwise very good with a strong solo from Daryl.

IKWIL - a fun singalong for the crowd, nice solo from Daryl, great they still kept the Stagnation quote in, but they have dropped the Blood On the Rooftops reference that they included in the 2007 tour.

Domino - no major screw-ups, unlike some other performances.

Throwing It All Away - fine performance, notable for the video history of Genesis (strange pairing, give the theme of the song), with shots of Peter and Steve, but no Ant as far as I could see, also showing the labels of various VHS cassettes of live shows and TV appearances (one was labelled The One Show '14, which for a brief moment made me excited that there was a previously unknown concert from that year, but then I realized it was probably the Together and Apart documentary).

Tonight, Tonight, Tonight - Phil actually reaching for some of the high Gs, with the rest filled in by the back-up singers.

Invisible Touch - notable for Phil standing up briefly to deliver the line "Though she may fuck up your life..."

I Can't Dance - love watching Tony playing with all the silly percussion sounds on his keyboard, fun also to see Nic and one of the vocalists entering doing the "dance", another song with Phil hitting some high Gs.

Dancing With the Moonlit Knight - pure nostalgia, with Phil staying in tune thankfully.

Carpet Crawlers - continuing the nostalgia, but as mentioned the harmonies seemed shakier than when Mike and Tony used to do them.

So overall, I enjoyed it. I don't need to see them again tonight. I won't need to buy the DVD if one comes out or the album. I did experience a warm farewell from a much-loved band, and that was worth it.

I was glad to see Duchess stay in the setlist for the 23rd. This is the one song I have not seen them perform at a concert (well, there is also that tiny snippet of Moonlit Knight), so I am crossing my fingers for tomorrow night.

I can't imagine him joining them onstage for anything. However if he is so inclined, it would be with a lyric prompter for either IKWIL or Carpet Crawlers I suspect.

I am going to tomorrow night's show. Still have to download the tickets to my phone as apparently they want to check them electronically.

I understand and share the perspective of preferring the whole song. And I also would prefer 2 whole songs instead of 4-5 blended into a 20-minute medley. That said, I'll take a medley over no old material. As much as the Old Medley on the WCD tour was a bit clunky in some of the transitions, it was all worth it to hear the opening of Dance On a Volcano, particularly when the bass pedals first hit and plowed through my entire physical being.

The early 80s In the Cage medley was the best one overall because the transitions worked really well, particularly from the end of In the Cage into Cinema Show. The transitions were a little less smooth for the IT tour version, but who can argue with a full ITC, a full ITQE, and Apocalypse to the end of Supper's Ready?

These interviews just recently appeared on YouTube. While much of the information has been said before in other interviews, I still found it interesting to watch. Phil's interview was done after Chester's and he responds to some of the things that Chester mentions.

There are also some interesting interviews with Daryl, Mike, and Tony.

Quote from Fabrizio

I mentioned songs that I thought could have fit but to be clear, not because I particularly like them TDL is nice so it's Dodo which sort of stands out on a quite imo weak album but If that's what you need, isn't really my cup of tea and Domino rubs me the wrong way, although I cannot really say why. You'll get no argument from me that Tony kept things simpler, it actually applies to the whole band, Phil playing backbeats and Mike not being Steve but I was referring more to the general atmosphere conjured up by some chords changes. There's a Youtube channel, Rick Beato where he has a series: What makes this song great. He talks about different songs, detailing production, structure, chords, arrangement and musicianship. There's an episode on Dance on a Volcano which I think you'd appreciate in case you don't already know it. It's a good example of the complexity Genesis dealt with back then. What Makes This Song Great Ep. 57 Genesis - YouTube

I think Dodo is great. I think it is also much simpler than the earlier songs. There's a bit of interesting dissonance in the opening chords and the linking section before the next verse. But the verses are pretty simple, just moving between two chords. The next section is also just two chords, with no modulation from the verses. There is a modulation to the next section (the "in the sea" part), which is essentially just one chord. I think of Dodo as a groove song, which is very different from their earlier material. I also like the Lurker section, but would again compare its simplicity to The Raven section of Slipperman, to which it has a passing resemblance.

Thanks for the rec of the Rick Beato episode. I have seen it before and really like how it shows how much Genesis could pack into just a few seconds of a song.

Quote from Fabrizio

What is you is true but there are things like style and sound that remain and unavoidably peek through and rear their head. When you hear the keyboards intro to If that's what you need on CAS for instance, that is unmistakably Tony and consequently Genesis, I'm not saying that song would have fit on previous albums, in fact I don't think it does but some elements always stick around.

As I said, I believe something like the Dividing Line would have fit, sure the sound is very modern but if you strip it down, I have no trouble imaging it on the Lamb with stuff like BINYC, Cage or The Colony of Slippermen. Dodo is reminiscent of their more epic and bombastic moments and personally I can imagine Peter singing that. Domino is another one, we get distracted by the mid 80s keyboards and drums sound but to its core, it is just another Tony's song and they've always been around.

I get what you mean, though I don't quite agree. As many of us have said over the years, Tony is the essential core of Genesis and so Tony's keyboard parts can make anything sound like Genesis throughout all the years. The keyboard intro on If That's What You Need is definitely Tony. But it is a different Tony than from the early 70s. He is mainly staying in one key - the main modulation comes with "And if there is any kind of danger...", and it is a minor modulation. It is more typical of later Tony parts, where he moves around more or less in the same key, changing shades rather than major harmonic departures. Songs like Hold On My Heart and Fading Lights are similar in this kind of way.

I quite like The Dividing Line. Again it is much simpler, with the intro staying in the same key over just 4 chords and Tony using a pretty repetitive motif. There is a modulation to the verses, which are otherwise pretty simple chordally. The most adventurous bit is the bridge ("In the comfort and safety of your own home... "). None of this seems musically like Tony's parts of The Lamb to my ears, which have more modulation and more intricate rhythm patterns. So even if you were to play The Dividing Line on say a Pro Soloist over a backing organ, I think it would sound quite different than music of that era.

YOSW is far from my favourite track, but I don't mind it. The live version from the Australian portion of the IT tour is quite nice.

While I can draw musical lines from various 3-man era songs back to the 5-man era, they were really writing differently by this point. They were often jamming as guitar, keyboards, and vocals, with a drum machine providing the basic rhythm. This is not going to naturally lead to a song that suits a 5-man band without considerable retooling. Plus they were deliberately trying to make a break from their earlier music, so even if they came up with something that sounded more 5-man era-isa, they might abandon it in favour of something that sounded newer and fresher.

So once you get past Duke, I can't think of much that would have fit well on earlier albums.

It is very easy for me to be a critic when watching and listening to a video shot on a smartphone. I am not being affected by all the other factors at play when I am attending a concert: the energy of thousands of excited people, the lights, the power and volume of the sound. I expect I will come away from this with both perspectives: enjoying the Toronto show as an experience and being underwhelmed when I watch the videos (perhaps even of the Toronto show).

It's a fair point that Mason was probably introduced to semi-finished songs and given instruction about how the tempo/feel should be. So he may have been limited in what he could add. Hard to know how much of his own ideas could be introduced into the arrangements.

I think the Rogers Waters and Pink Floyd situation is complicated. He definitely made an important contribution artistically with his lyrics and writing the music to many key songs. I also agree that Gilmour and Wright contributed hugely to the music writing and overall arrangements and sound. I agree Mason contributed the least from an artistic perspective, but that said, his relatively plodding and unimaginative playing is very much part of the sound. When you hear Floyd covered by others (including Roger Waters), it can sometimes sound "wrong" in the hands of a more skilled drummer.

I don't think it is correct to say that a bassist can't contribute as much to a band's sound. People like John Entwistle, Chris Squire, Geddy Lee were all essential components to their respective bands' sounds.

In terms of the who-treated-who badly aspect, it is impossible to know what really went down. Some people say Waters treated the rest poorly during the latter years of the band. Waters says he's been treated badly. I'm willing to believe there was nastiness both ways and also willing to believe that perhaps more than 50% comes from Waters. Although I haven't followed this issue closely, it seems that Waters was most angry in the earlier years after The Final Cut and then has mellowed more recently. This happens. Lennon was quite sharp and critical of McCartney and The Beatles in general right after they broke up, and then became more balanced about it over time.

One small correction to the above, Welcome to the Machine is sung by Gilmour, not Waters.

Although I very much like TSW and TRS, Hounds of Love remains my favourite album. The songs on Side 1 are all strong and The Ninth Wave is an amazing suite that I still find magical.

Going back to the comments about Rolling Stone and the R&RHoF, I was a faithful Rolling Stone reader from 1980 to about 2000. It has always had a very obvious bias towards American music and music that was either strongly influenced by or was a strong influence on American music. However, since I like a lot of American-based music, it still provided some excellent in-depth interviews and profiles that I learned a lot from. I found the writing became increasingly superficial, which is why I ultimately abandoned it.

The R&RHoF reflects the same bias. So it makes sense that Eddie Cochran (who released only a few singles and one album but was hugely influential) is an inductee while many other artists who have had substantial careers and fan bases are not yet inductees. I'm actually a bit surprised that Genesis, Yes, Rush, and others have been inducted as they were consistently disparaged and ignored by Rolling Stone and most of the music critics for decades.

Quote from Fabrizio

Perhaps, personally though, I'm under the impression and it's been the case for the past decade that he's simply lost drive and motivation. Understandably so, he's 70, I believe, he achieved a lot commercially and artistically and did quite well for himself. Looking back and it a fan's wish, he could have perhaps released a couple of more albums but I'd say he had his say.

You are probably right in terms of his overall motivation. If he had really wanted to, he would have put out another studio album years ago.

I'm hoping for just a release of whatever he has worked on. It doesn't need to be a fully-realized album. I'll take a Flotsam and Jetsam part 2 that just collects together all of the songs he's worked on since Up that haven't found another home.

Firth of Fifth is easier to sing than some Genesis songs, but it still would have to be keyed down a bit for his current range, perhaps by a full step. So either the whole instrumental section would also have to be keyed down or they would have to do some kind of extra transposition into that section.

The Cinema Show section they do is fine, but I could also have done without it as it has been on many tours.

Quote from Christian

Blinking Lights

and my favorite: Tomorrow Morning

Thanks!

The only Eels album I have is Beautiful Freak, which I quite like. So if I were to explore another album, which should I pick?

Perhaps one silver lining of the pandemic is that it left PG with more time to actually work on album tracks, since he hasn't been able to tour or do many other things.