Posts by Blacksword

It does sadden me to see Phil Collins hobbling about with a walking stick in obvious pain. I've been a Genesis fan for donkeys years and have always been a huge fan of Phil as a drummer and a a singer in the band. No one could have replaced Gabriel apart from him, and he filled the gaping hole brilliantly

Phil always seemed so youthful and full of energy; the contrast and counterpoint to Mike and Tony's reserved public school demeanour. Although I was never a fan of Phil's solo music, his contribution to Genesis and to music generally over the years has been considerable and diverse. He's an extraordinarily talented musician, and what he brought to Genesis was key to their commercial success. That said, he is often 'blamed' by die hards for the bands 'selling out' but people forget that it wasn't his band. It was Tony and Mike's band, and it went in the direction they wanted it to go. It just happened to work with Phil's musical interests and influences. Interestingly, though one of Phils favourite Genesis albums is The Lamb.

The whole question of whether Radiohead are prog rock or not is a thread topic on it's own...and through my experience on a prog rock forum, probably a discussion to be avoided. People get quite heated about such things, especially those for whom prog rock is defined by having a heavy rock foundation, compositions characterised by long meandering solo's, mellotron waves and ever shifting time signatures.

Radiohead are prog by definition, IMO, and are a unique band. I'm often not in the mood for them, but when I am, I find they can take me to places many other bands can't. OK Computer is a masterpiece of rock music. The Bends also is incredible. That was an 'indie band' at the top of their game, and ready to 'progress' elsewhere. Planet Telex, The Bends, High & Dry, Fake Plastic Trees, Street Sprit still move me, and take me back to some very good times. The 90's was my era, and The Bends was one of those era defining albums, as was Ok Computer. What came after, I mostly took too. I still love Kid A and Amnesiac. Hearing Pyramid Song live was quite an experience! King of Limbs & Hail to the Thief left me a little cold. There didn't seem to be enough to hook me in. I'll have to revisit. In Rainbows was a return to form, and Moon shaped pool aint too shoddy either.

After Genesis, and alongside Floyd, KC are among my favourite prog rock bands. Favoruite albums are Red and Lizard. I like the darkness and the organised chaos of the 70's music, and the slick, experimental but accessable sound of their 80's releases. Fripps approach to making music still sounds refreshing to me after all these years. I see Van Der Graff also mentioned as a 'challenging' band. I love VDGG for similar reasons as for KC, but yes VDGG are often not easy on the ear!

From Daryl Hall and Debbie Harry, to The Orb and The Future Sound of London, Fripp is recognised as a groundbreaking musician and ideas man, and a worthy collaborator. I have tickets to see KC in London this November. Can't wait!

Quote from StillCan'tDance

I love pop, too. I don't see what the problem is. The Beatles were a pop band, after all.

I also agree that there's more grit to Three Sides Live than Seconds Out. When Phil took over as the singer, of course his voice was much more in harmony with the music than Peter's because Phil is a naturally gifted musician. But he sang in a mannered style ("polite" as Phil put it), concerned more with how the lyrics sounded than what they actually meant. Compare his performance of, say, Supper's Ready on the Wind And Wuthering tour to his performance at The Marquee in 1982; it's much more convincing in '82. I think once Phil emerged as a lyricist in his own right, so he became more assured as a singer.

I wouldn't worry about being in the minority with your opinion, Backdrifter. If you tell people here that Genesis's records sold in much greater quantities in the eighties, they'll be quick to tell you "just because a lot of people liked it doesn't make it good" so clearly minority opinions are valued highly round this 'ere parts!

I also like pop music. I just don't want to hear Genesis making pop music, because I think they were better as a rock band. It's all down to personal taste. There were many pop bands in the 80's who were far better at making pop music than Genesis were, in my humble opinion of course.

Quote from OneForTheVine

Well, let's make it three who saw "Subdivisions" on that same tour! It was stunning, and I have always loved Signals.

Alex was always torn on Signals too - he missed having full-frontal guitar (as did many of the fans), but he also realized that the album was great without it. I absolutely adored the "Permanent Waves" to "Grace Under Pressure" Rush - what an era! (Now I loved "2112" to "Hemispheres" too, but the evolution of their sound was so good.)

Grace Under Pressure is a great album. In contrast to Signals, the guitar comes screaming to the foreground on that album, and yet it's still very much one of their 'synth' era albums. It has an U2/Simple Minds/General 80's guitar rock/pop influence IMO. It was a slow grower for me, but I ended up liking it quite a lot more than Signals.

Quote from Fabrizio

90125 is a GREAT album, not as good as Fragile or Going for the one imo but I had much less trouble with it than with Abacab for instance, the material is really strong, it was also the album that made me realize something I had been unaware of: I don't really like Howe's sound. An incredible guitarist but I am not a fan of his sound. The all time I was listening to Yes and thinking how great they were but something was bothering me and I couldn't put my finger on it. When Rabin got on board it became clear. Of course it didn't help that both Howe and Wakeman would play a lot, sometimes too much and often at each other trying to compete but it is really Howe's sound that slightly grates me.

90125, is better than anything Genesis recorded after Duke. It gives Duke a run for it's money too, IMO.

Quote from Backdrifter

Oh, I like me some pop!

I think I see a pattern emerging: in our Crimson discussion, you said you like Beat, "despite it being quite commercial-sounding".

Unsurprisingly, I don't much care for Seconds Out. I think their performances, and PC's vocals, further improved with time and I prefer the overall vibe of 3SL. There's something too produced about SO, like it has a sort of sheen to it, and PC's voice hasn't matured properly yet.

I realise I'm swimming against the tide; I think I'm in the minority in not much liking that era.

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My only criticism of Seconds Out really is that Hackett is somewhat mixed down. The drums and keyboards come to the foreground quite dramatically. It was clear the band was trying to forge a new sound, and emphasise how powerful their live performances could be. I love those dynamics though, and call me a philistine but I think the versions of Firth of Fifth and Cinema Show are superior to the originals (although Gabriels vocals were obviously better)

Quote from Backdrifter

One of their outstanding tracks, from an album I like a lot but which was very divisive at the time. I'm a sucker for heavy bass synth and on stage when that intro kicked in, oh man....

Yep! I hear ya The best track on Signals. It did cause some stress among Rush nuts at the time. It's when the synths really came to to the front of the mix for the first time, almost drowning the the guitar. That was never going to sit well with hard rock purists, but probaby appealed to many of their more proggy fans.

Quote from Backdrifter

I was generally able to make sure I got really good seats at the front and never had any sound problems, bar one occasion on the R30 tour when I was at the very top, at the back, on one side.

If i were to list my gig 'moments', one would be Subdivisions, second song in, right at the front on the Hold Your Fire tour. All I can say is: stunning.

Yeah, I always ended up with bad seats, so that may have something to do with it.

How good is Subdivisions!? That song never fails to move me. Geddy sings it so well, the keyboards are lush and Neils drumming is perfect. I saw them perfom that on Hold your Fire too...albeit from the cheap seats! Great show.

Quote from NoSonOfVine

Big fan of Camel. In my top ten fave bands for sure.

"The Snow Goose" and "Moonmadness" are underrated classics of prog.

Not sure that Snowgoose is underated. It sold by the lorry load and was critically acclaimed at the time, although it did put the wind up the record company, who were nbot keen on instrumental albums.

Moonmadness is probably my fave Camel album, although I've notheard them all. Lunar Sea is a brilliant instrumental. Latimer is up there with Dave Gilmour for his melodic lead guitar work.

Quote from Backdrifter

^ Interesting - Supertramp is a band I've never massively disliked but also never really had that 'click' with them. I hear the occasional track and it's okay, and I recall quite liking Crisis - the opening two tracks were a highlight for me.

I still feel frustrated that I wasted the last couple of chances to see Rush in the UK. I had a sort of on-off liking of them but on the whole I'd say I was a fan.

I've seen Rush maybe five times. Wonderful band, but one I almost prefer listening to at home, rather than in some enormous arena where they seemed to suffer terrible sound. I guess as their own hearing declined over the years they felt they had to crank everyting up to 11! With so much going on at the top end in their music, at that volume they used to distort really badly. That said, I will never forget seeing them perform La Villa Strangiato and Xanadu live. Glorious music.

Quote from Backdrifter

And equally, while it's far from a favourite of mine I do get why it has a certain appeal for many. Though I genuinely struggle to see what redeeming features Scenes and Snowbound have - maybe less so with Big, as the anthemic keyboard line is kind of nice, but the rest of that track has a feel of "ah, this'll do." Overall though, while it's not for me I do get your reasons for having some affection for it - the albums and tunes you hear in those formative years stay with you.

As for W&W, I agree about omitting the two tracks you mentioned, but sadly I'd want to also leave out pretty much everything else bar about 4 tracks! As a fairly new Genesis fan at the time, I liked discovering everything then. But over the years, I've come to lose interest in the 4-man era and ATTWT. While there are 3 or 4 solid classics from that era, those albums now leave me cold. From Duke, my interest was revived.

I think the four man band was their best period. The Gabriel albums are absolute classics of course, and I think they recorded less 'filler' in those years, but Trick and W&W were their best performed and produced albums and the accompanying live performances were mindblowing (Seconds Out). Duke also had some incredible highs, but, for me, some unforgivable lows (Misunderstanding & Please Don't ask) The latter should have been left for a Collins solo album. After Duke, it all went a bit pop for me, although they could still pull some gems out of the bag; Mama, Domino, Fading Lights spring to mind.

YES, I'm a fan

Close to the Edge and Relayer are joint faves, I guess, but I also love Going for the One and that album seems to divide fans. Awaken is arguably their finest hour (well, 15 minutes)

I also think 90125 is one of their best albums.... Run's and takes cover...!

Despise is pretty strong I guess but when I first heard Rush I tought they were the worst band I'd ever heard. I was 14 and my fave band was Motorhead, ands the first ush track I heard was New World Man, so that aybe why. I went on to love them, and to consider them one of the best heavy prog acts of all time.

Supertramp is another. They used to irritate the crap out of me, but when I actually listened to Crime of the century I appreciated their genius.

Including live albums.. (Haven't heard the 90's live album)

Foxtrot

A Trick of the Tail

The Lamb lies down on Broadway

Wind & Wuthering

Selling England by the Pound

And then there were three

Genesis Live

Seconds Out

Nursery Cryme

Trespass

Duke

Three sides live

Genesis (Shapes)

Abacab

Invisble Touch

We can't dance

FGTR

Calling all stations

I'm a bit late to the party here, but my three would be Foxtrot, The Lamb and A Trick of the Tail.

It's a close call between Trick and W&W.... But Trick has Dance on a Volcano (the song that got me into Genesis) and the mighty Los Endos. The Lamb is incredible musicaly. It's the most atmospheric prog rock album ever recorded IMO, even if the story is a bit sixth form hippy

As for Foxtrot..Suppers Ready (enough said)

Quote from The_Genesis_Archive

Ray met Phil Collins back stage during the December 1997 shows, at Earls Court. Ray has also emailed Phil etc.

Ray met Tony after Genesis folded. Ray has worked with Steve Hackett, Anthony Phillips has met Steve and worked with Steve.

John Mayhew, met Ant at the 2006 Genesis convention.

Daryl Stuermer has worked with Tony Banks, on Tony's solo albums.

Chester Thompson has worked with Steve and met Steve.

Ray did meet up with the reformed Genesis on the 2007 tour.

and so the list goes on and on...

Regards

Mark

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It was at that 2006 convention in London where I met John Mayhew and Ant Phillips. They had worked on Trespass together anyway. That was a fun day. I asked them what it was like to meet up after all these years, and Ant joked that they'd had a punch up in the car park, to 'lay the past to rest'

Of the 'Three of perfect pair' trio of albums, I'm actually quite fond of Beat, despite it arguably being the most commercial of the set. The title track on TOOPP is 80's KC at its best though.

Interesting your mention of Radiohead. From Ok Computer onward, I always regarded them as a prog rock band, before I was aware of any attempt to label them as such. They are prog by definition IMO, purely because they have a progressive approach to making music, with each album only loosely following their formula of combining electonica with guitar music. Their 'anything goes' approach to making music is similar to that of KC, I agree, although Fripp ensured a constantly changing approach to songwriting by changing line ups or at least key members from one album to the next, whereas RH at least stuck together!

OK Computer remains in my top 10 albums of all time. In Rainbows and Kid A also rank highly for me, and being a closet Indie kid, The Bends is an album I'll always love. Good days!

I feel the same regarding Scenes, Snowbound and Ballard of Big, but Motherode, Burning Rope, Undertow are all favourites. I also agree the sound of the album was greatly improved through the re-masters. Far more punch! For me, it's an album which meant a lot to me at the time because of what was going on in my life and I love it for that reason, but I understand why it polarises opinion. I hadn't heard any earlier albums at that point, and it is a step down from Wind & Wuthering, although W&W could have been imporved with the omission of Wot Gorrila and Your own Special Way.

Quote from IndieBrindie

i agree it is a challenge keeping the list to 10 but this will simply encourage us all to re-listen to the tracks in order to ensure nothing important gets left out. I’m allowing a week per track so as to garner sufficient responses which I plan to collate at the end into some sort of graph. I’d also like to encourage people to wax lyrically about why they’ve chosen what they have and that in itself can take time to draft. Hope you stay the course Blacksword

I'll do my best to stay with it

Down & Out was one of handful of tracks that really confirmed me as a Genesis fan. After hearing Dance on a Volcano on the radio, I started saving to buy an album but in the meantime I thought I'd loan a cassette from the local libray, and that cassette was 'And then there were three' Down & Out remains one of my favourite alnum openers of all time. That deep base, and stomping 5/4 beat set against those strong Genesis melodies make it a great package. It's very representative of where the band were at the time. It's prog rock, but also very listenable and accessable.

Contraversially (?) ATTWT also remains in my top 5 Genesis albums, partly for sentimental reasons.