Wonder what the split was between PC and TB song rights?...hopefully Tony has got over his frustration at Phil being more popular and is laughing at his replenished bank account 🤣
I really doubt Tony's account was depleted.
Posts by Fabrizio
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Why don't you think they're prog? I'm just interested in your reasons.
Their songs I guess, stripped to their core: chords, melody and harmonies, they are not as complex as those of other prog bands, if we consider complexity as a benchmark for prog artists. The use they made of the studio, almost as an instrument, was certainly adventurous and can be considered progressive but generally speaking they don't compare musically and in terms of musicianship to Genesis, KC, ELP, Yes, Rush and so on. I love them and I'm probably splitting hairs here but I've always had a hard time considering them prog. Take Gilmour, whose sound I love, he's basically a blues guitarist, Wright, Waters and Mason are fine but in terms of chops, I don't feel they compare to any of their counterparts in other prog bands. I think it's one of the secrets of their success, as quirky and inventive as they were, they were not intricate at all, you can hum and strum along most of their songs.
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I like them and I think they are amongst the best in terms of songwriting, that said I never thought they were prog, it's not necessarily detrimental to their greatness, I just don't feel they belob in that category.
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Much as I love his music ''the making of'' and ''Peter Gabriel'' in the same sentence is an oxymoron.
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I hope Phil in particular takes care of himself, manages to find some sort of balance in in personal life and gets healthier. That's about it.
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From the ones in the list, it is definitely Close To The Edge with Awaken being a close second.
I'll second that.
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I just gave the album a listen (not because of this discussion), and I have to say I'm not quite in agreement with the common dislike of Side 2 as compared to Side 1.
I do understand it, though, since Side 2 has nothing on the level of "Mama" or "Home By The Sea." And then, of course, there's "Illegal Alien," which manages to be wrong about its subject matter according to every possible viewpoint; I can't take it seriously enough for it to bother me, though, and there's nothing wrong with it musically. Besides all that, once that awful edited version of "It's Gonna Get Better" is replaced by the proper full version, we have a bunch of songs that I like just fine. In fact "Just a Job To Do" is one of my favorite songs on the album.
I gave it a listen too, admittedly because of this discussion and because it had actually been a while, probably years, since I had listened to Side B properly, I suspect I'm not the only one. I wanted to see if I could dispel any preconceived idea. I partially reassessed my position on Silver Rainbow which I used to find dreadful and now I find OK but no more than that. I like the keyboards on It's gonna get better but I find the song unconvincing and meandering, the rest, I must admit, is not something that would even be in my radar if it didn't have the name Genesis on it. The only thing remarkable about Just a job to do is in my view Phil's vocal performance. Taking it all too hard sounds like an unfinished demo. Illegal Alien is just crass humor, musically it does nothing for me. Someone said the album sounds rushed, I'd agree and it makes sense considering their schedule at the time. They released Duke in 1980, Abacab in 81, 3SL in 82 and Genesis in 83, plus the solo records and all the touring. Duke aside which I find quite solid I think the material suffered a bit.
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Thanks, I love stuff like this. What pop music can do when jazz musicians get at it! I never understood the arrogance of the self-acclaimed prog experts who rub their noses at brilliant music like this.
Also because, what they deem ''complex'' might be considered laughable by fans or musicians from other genres, i.e. Jazz or classical music. Don't get me wrong I like it when musicians are ambitious but it should never become a pissing contest.
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Although there can be a tendency to lump complex chords with being more progressive overall, I think this is an oversimplification. As mentioned above, Carpet Crawlers (if we exclude the intro, which borrows its chords from TLLDOB) has only 6 straightforward major and minor chords, and is generally seen as part of Genesis's progressive era. Hold On My Heart has all kinds of complicated chords and yet is very much part of the more pop-oriented part of their career. I think there are other aspects of songs that can determine how pop or progressive a song is beyond the chords.
Mama, despite it being on an album with some catchier singles, is not particularly pop-oriented to my ears. It is not danceable. Tony's initial synth line is in the melodic minor scale, emphasizing the natural 6th and 7th, which is hardly a catchy intro overtop the drum machine pattern. The hook, if it even is that, is just that last line at the end of each verse. I find it odd (and great) that it was used as the lead single instead of catchier options on the album.
Complex chords or chords progression mean literally nothing and don't guarantee the song is going to be great, Hold on to my Heart is a good example, if I'm not mistaken the working title was Bacharach which is telling and the chords progression was Tony's and they are interesting chords but they decided to slap some trite lyrics on it, turn on the saccharine factor on and use some really cheesy keyboards sounds, thus drowning any sense of originality in the song. I trust many here will be familiar with Rock's Beato's YouTube channel, here's a good example of a quite complex song with an outrageously sappy melody:
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I still remember sitting around with friends with the vinyl single and putting it on for the first time. We all thought "What the...?" after getting into Genesis with the likes of Firth of Fifth. But as we listened to it repeatedly, we all began to appreciate it more.
I love how it builds atmosphere, with the drum machine pattern and the low pedal note. Then Tony comes in with the eerie lead line and Mike adds a few sinister guitar notes. Then Tony's pulsing chords start to fade in. All a perfect set-up for perhaps Phil's scariest vocal performance. Yes the laugh is cool. And the walloping drums in the second half complete the picture.
This would be the peak in many a band's catalogue. For Genesis, it was one of many.
I heard Mama on the radio on Sept.5th, 83, I remember it precisely because I was packing to leave for the army the day after, I had been drafted and back then it was compulsory. I rushed off to buy the album and gave it a couple of listens. Mama was mesmerizing. I returned home for the first time in December for 1 day and in all that time I had no chance to listen to it. No radio where I was posted and back then no internet or anything. I was the singer in a band at the time and I remember trying hard to hit those high notes in Mama...I couldn't, not in a satisfactory way at least. Upon my second listen, months apart I was pretty much blown away by side A which was a relief because Abacab left me wondering if they lost it. They hadn't and while I was underwhelmed by side B, still am to this day, the quality of side A alone was enough to reassure me.
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The drums machine pattern literally drives Mama, it's purely decorative and ornamental on ITAT. You literally cannot hum Mama without having that drums pattern and sound on the back of your mind. It's entirely possible you find them similar but I would suggest the drums machine is nor the nexus between them.
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One of their all time classics - and it was a monster during the recent tour. 14 from me ...
I really have to disagree with that, I'm glad you enjoyed it of course but that's a power song for a vocalist, take the power away and there's little left. Just my opinion but that was painful to hear. If we praise Phil's vocal performance on it , we then have to be coherent in assessing how he sings it.
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Being Genesis and not long after they left the Progressive roots of the past. I find Mama to be an OK track, nothing outstanding but just Good in my rating. I would still prefer their progressive music any day over the commercial poppier songs that transformed this great band.
I'm definitely amongst those who prefer their output from 1970 to 1980, I'm also amongst those who believed they had to change. I think with Mama they did so successfully. I can't possibly have the same connection I have with some of their tracks of the 5 or 4 man era but it is still a fantastic song, after this they went too far as far as I'm concerned.
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Good song, unusual for Genesis but too simple as chords.
It's similar but don't reach In The Air Tonight.
Carpet Crawlers has an incredibly simple chords progression, I'd say it's a fantastic song anyway. As for the similarity with ITAT, personally I don't hear it. Mama is built around and upon a quite ominous drums machine pattern, ITAT, again very simple chords, is literally based on said chords on keyboards and the melodic line of the guide vocals. Yes, Phil's drum kicks in at a certain point and that sound is unmistakable but the drum fill on ITAT alone is enough to make it different from Mama.
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the walloping drums in the second half complete the picturehen the drums kicked in
When the drums kicked in, I remember thinking for a moment that perhaps Phil was milking it a bit with that sound but ultimately it just fits perfectly.
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A modern era classic in my view, what Genesis could and imo should have sounded like in the 80s. Fresh, new but still Genesis through and through. Arguably Phil' best vocal performance, impressive range and expression. Tony holds finally back a bit and still shines and Mike's drums machine pattern is pure genius. I gave it 14 for the sole reason that I reserve 15 to stuff like Cinema Show, Musical Box and Supper's Ready but amazing song.
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White Shadow from Scratch?
Oooppppss sorry, I meant Here comes the Flood, although not crazy about the original version.
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PG is one of my favorite artists but I'm happy I didn't purchase this upon release, the anticipation must have been enormous and in that sense, the album is a bit of the letdown. Apart from the obvious Solsbury Hill, only Humdrum and White shadow stand our for me, I find the rest really forgettable, luckily though, by this time I had already heard PG3 and I knew what he was capable of.
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With all due respect I think these drawn-out back-and-forth discussions can hit the point of diminishing returns after a while. The likelihood of anyone changing anyone else’s mind is virtually nil, and becomes even more so when the discussion is prolonged—it’s not in our nature as human to invest substantial time and effort into such an effort only to throw up our hands and admit rhetorical defeat. Perhaps it’s time for all to say peace and you’re entitled to your opinion.
You are of course right but personally I never get involved to try and change people's minds, it can't be done and I'm not interested in it, nor do I have any intention to take anything away from the enjoyment people derive from listening to stuff I might not find as interesting, again it can't be done and I wouldn't want to, it's just that the Forum tends to stagnate sometimes, as it is normal for a band that is basically done and nothing against the 'what did you have for dinner' threads but sometimes I enjoy a little debate on the subject matter, the Band and the music. I get your point of the diminishing returns but generally I'm more concerned by the fact that things get out of hand and personal when people get frustrated because they cannot cope with different opinions or their long held views are being shaken. It wasn't the case here and I'm thankful for that.
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I will concede that Abacab is a polarising album, but for the rest I will leave it as we are just going back & forth here. I respect your opinions as I hope you do mine.
I must say I was actually enjoying the back and forth, I think it's the point of a Forum, as long as it's done respectfully and I think it was. Of course I respect your opinion and your desire to stop here.
