Posts by Fabrizio

  • GENESIS - 40th anniversary of "Three Sides Live"

    Quote from Micklemus

    FYFM on Seconds Out???? I get your point though, and I agree. It's the light and shade, power and delicacy that you get from those earlier songs and performances which appeals to me. In the 80s (and evident on 3SL) it was "BAM, we're here, we're good at what we do, take that, and that...and that" whereas in 77 it was more about the range and getting the most atmosphere from each piece. I think much of this was down to Steve Hackett still being in the band. Daryl might be technically more proficient but Steve had atmosphere in spades. Also, Tony was still using the Mellotron, which might have been a nightmare to maintain but the sounds it produced were perfect for classic Genesis and never matched by his synth efforts in later years. And although Hugh Padgham's production, with its very immediate sound, was perfect for the 'newer' numbers on 3SL, David Hentschel captured the feel of the bands 'older' numbers proportionately better on Seconds Out (despite SH being too low in the mix in places). In my view of course.


    I've said enough!

    It's actually odd, if I compare the tracks list on the two albums there is no match, SO has everything that hooked me up on Genesis and made them my favorite band, everything except Peter which is no minor detail, Phil as a singer does a fine, proficient job on some of Peter's songs, less so on others imo.

    On 3SL he's another singer altogether and although it is true that he took some licenses, because of the self-confidence he had gained, his delivery of In the cage, for instance, let me in awe.

    That album made my summer and for a brief moment I put SO aside. 3SL was my summer flirt but SO is my romantic love affair, 2 very different things. I have a soft spot for the 1980 Lyceum Theatre, I saw it on YouTube and I think it's the right blend between the early days magic and the new energy creeping in. Phil is already a good singer, Daryl and particularly Chester seem to blend in better and Duke was a great album to take on the road. About FYFM on SO, my bad, I meant the studio version.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from FeelItComing


    My personal taste absolutely informs my opinion of Abacab, I'm aware of it and I don't deny or conceal it, I don't know why you would think otherwise but tt's really not about that isn't? You think Abacab is a great one and you minimized the fact that it is never played live, I don't agree with you on the former statement and I tried to offer some explanations to the live thing, ''Offer'' being the key operational word, because ultimately, only 3 people know the truth.

    No, I haven't spoken to each and every Genesis fan and I know that Abacab has some but would you deny it is a polarizing album? Would you deny that Abacab is not up there in the fans' preferences? I've been around several incarnations of this forum and I've been member of others, in Italian, English, German and Spanish. Product of having lived in several countries, having been a fan for decades and frankly being old. There's no way to escape the fact that Abacab is generally not rated highly. I don't think it's necessary to ask everyone. It would be perhaps interesting to poll Abacab exclusively with other 3 man era albums and see how it does but in a general poll, I'm sorry...

    Abacab was more successful then its predecessors, it figures since it was more immediate and accessible, it was also less successful than its successors though, I don't have the figures in my head but I don't think it reached the commercial peaks of IT and WCD, I'm not sure about Shapes. To this day, generally speaking, it's very rare you hear anything from Abacab on the radio, it can happen but not compared to other albums of that era.

    Reviews, I don't know whether fresh reviews have been written about it, I cannot really opine, I somehow doubt though the album is now revered.

    Commercial success, I don't know why you resist the notion that commercial success is an indicator....In Pop. I equally don't know why, you keep comparing with songs which were never going to be featured on Top of the Pops or, due to their length, never get any radio time. With that in mind, if an artist suddenly starts churning out pop tunes, they better chart and sell, otherwise what's the point? IT was a commercial Juggernaut, that alone makes it a classic, whether I agree or not and trust me I don't, that factor alone dictates that it must be played live. It doesn't apply to Abacab apparently.

    The live bit, it might be that I read too much into it, in an attempt to back up my opinion of that Album but when I read that Phil cannot sing anymore, Phil cannot drum anymore, they have too many songs and they need to make a choice and even worse that the Beatles have never played some of their classics live, for each of those points there is, in my view a valid, argument which I won't repeat now because I've made them already. If I read too much into it, those are simply excuses.

    I said I like Dodo and M&SJ, I also like MOTC and KID, given the fact though that Genesis have written so many great songs, I really don' think those are up there and they can be labeled as classics. The title track, I'm sorry but I think it's abysmal and probably gets the prize as Genesis worst instrumental ever, PERSONALLY, I can see why they don't play it anymore, despite the fact that it's an obvious live number. Ask them to drop TIOA and they probably tell you they can't and don't want to. BTW you can get as technical as you like.

    No, the artist opinion doesn't affect me, it doesn't make me like or dislike a song or an album more. Genesis members have often spoken poorly of some of their songs I like. Yes members, a band I adore, often praise Relayer as their best work. I don't like it, I don't care what they say, why should I?

    They have a different connection, as artists and creators I realize that, they probably think, they should or could have played it differently, I'm just the listener and I hear things differently.

  • Genesis, Genesis Album

    I've always said that Side A was in my opinion their new course peak, much more focused than Abacab where their main concern seemed to be change things by throwing stuff at the wall and see what stuck. Very few did imo. Side B to me is even worse than Abacab but at least they had one side and a couple of really memorable tracks to carry the album. I can understand why many prefer IT but they completely lost me with that which is a bit funny because when I look at it, THERE ARE good songs on it, alongside some really atrocious, tawdry stuff though. I'm not a fan of the production either, I prefer Abacab's sound, even though they sound almost similar

  • GENESIS - 40th anniversary of "Three Sides Live"

    Quote from Micklemus

    When I saw Genesis at Twickenham in 2007 Follow You Follow Me was touching and brought a tear to my eye. The 3SL version feels like filler to me.


    Misunderstanding - we'll have to agree to differ there! I agree that Daryl helps make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. However, I think Chester (again) lacks subtlety here, the bit at the end is toe curlingly awful and, well, the song is overrated generally. But life would be boring if we all agreed on everything.

    For years I thought FYFM on 3SL put the SO version to shame, same with Afterglow. I guess I got carried away by Phil's newly found vocal power but in time I came to realize that delivering a song is also about mood and nuances, not necessarily power. The perks of aging, I guess but again, it's a mood thing, I can listen to the two versions equally, depending on the moment.

    About Misunderstanding, one of the songs I started skipping, I agree that it is incredibly overrated, same with Abacab but I understand why the former is always played live.

  • GENESIS - 40th anniversary of "Three Sides Live"

    Bought it and played it to exhaustion, in time I began skipping a couple of songs but I loved the energy of the album. To me it isn't necessarily better or worse than SO, they just are very different, it's more of a mood thing. 3SL was summertime, packed with energy and joie de vivre, SO was more wintertime, intimate and wistful. I think Phil never got enough credit for the kind of singer he became, something that became evident on 3SL.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from rkive

    It can be read in any interview to Banks or Rutherford, that Abacab isn't their preferit album.

    Naturally this opinion don't match to Genesis' fans. :/

    True but personally I don't really care about that, the artist's opinion of his work hardly has an impact on my preferences, they all acknowledge anyway that the moment they release a song or an album it's no longer their own and it's a slippery slope, throughout time they expressed negative opinions over songs and albums that are revered by the fans.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from FeelItComing

    But also, if you are going to state that a criterion for classic status is that a song should be played live, that eliminates everytihng by the Beatles as a band from Revolver onwards. Perhaps the Beatles should not be an example because McCartney obviously plays many of the later songs in his solo shows. But the Beatles never played A Day In The Life. So...

    No, come on, let's be fair here, I've never said that's the sole criterion, I made a couple of points which haven't been even addressed, the live bit was one of them and I shouldn't even bring up that the Beatles stopped touring in 66, not a good example.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from FeelItComing

    But you are resorting to your personal taste, no matter how much you claim you are judging it 'rationally'. I think your 'Genesis fans in general have spoken, etc' is an incredibly sweeping statement. I still think you read too much into none of the songs being played live.

    I made no mystery of my opinion in general of Abacab as an album, I said I like a couple of songs, I just don't think they are up there with their best ones. I don't think I'm being swayed by my personal taste but of course I have no way to be sure, that said, the arguments I have presented are my opinion quite solid and I think it would be more productive to address those rather to imply I just dislike the album.

    Perhaps my statements are sweeping but again, how do you counter them? Are they incorrect? Untrue? Various forums, in various languages apart, for what is worth, through the years, I've met many Genesis fans, in several countries I lived in and I can assure you that they reflect what you see in several polls. Abacab has its following, but it is in no way large. As for me reading to much into the fact the album isn't represented live, again, you might be right but fans have complains and questions, questions that cannot be answered by the fact that they have have too large a catalogue or Phil cannot drum or sing anymore. They don't sound like sound, valid arguments and I tried to explain that.

    Perhaps I'm biased but songs of a good, important album are cherished and played live.

    Allow me to throw the ball back into your court though, you clearly like the album and that's fine, you seem to think it's a great album, have you got more than your personal taste to substantiate that? They released I think 15 studio albums, why is Abacab top notch?

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from MoonlitKnight

    By the measure of dropping music from a given album completely from live sets, none of the songs on Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, and (at least on the most recent tour) A Trick of the Tail are “classic”? If it’s a mix of several factors, doesn’t that mean each factor must be present for a song to be called “classic”? If not, which factors are most important? It seems to me commercial success is at the bottom of the list (if it deserves to be there at all). Members of the band have talked about the challenge of putting together a setlist in which much of the set has to be comprised of songs that the fans expect to hear (the hits). As they have pointed out, that leaves a limited amount of time to play songs they’d like to play that aren’t “fan favorites.”

    I made the comment about Trick and Wind having several songs that don't translate well live, not the case with Abacab with at least 3 to 5 obvious live songs. Still those two albums each have one song being played and revered to this day: Songs they MUST play and I guess they play gladly, I've also said that, at least for the majority Genesis fans the status of those albums cannot be questioned, SEBTP ranks always 1st or 2nd in any poll, same with Trick, Wind is always up there, so are other Gabriel albums, not the case with Abacab. By the way I think it's a bit unfair to bring them up as term of comparison, they are long ago and never get any radio time, the majority of the general audience never even heard them, older songs are always more likely to be dropped, so you cannot make a comparison with Abacab which can only be compared with later albums

    Let's understand each other, I'm not interested in commercial success but it is a factor, actually, the only one measurable in figures. Wake me up before you go go, is a pop classic, whether you and I like it or less, so is Dancing Queen, and so is IT. Yes, the band have a hard time putting together a set list, given their decades spanning career, and yes they have to play the favorites, now, EVIDENTLY no Abacab song is amongst them, it was the case now, in 2007 and, during the WCD tour and apart from the title track during the IT tour. Imagine this, only two albums later, when Phil could sing and drum whatever he wanted, only one song was left. I think the signs are quite clear.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from FeelItComing

    I did say ''for me' in my post. I think it's a bit harsh to say that one person shouldn't be allowed to use the word to describe a song they love. We will have to agree to diagreee there.

    I noticed you said it's your opinion and anyone can use the word "classic", as he pleases, people can also disagree and explain why, particularly in cases where the only parameter used to back a personal assessment is personal taste .

    We are exposing different views here,so far respectfully, if somebody says they like Abacab, the only thing I can offer is, I don't and we are done, if however, somebody says Abacab or some songs on it are classics, I think I can dispute that rationally, without having to resort to my personal taste. The Album was released 31 years ago, enough time to put everything in perspective, I think Genesis fans, in general, have spoken, the general audience have spoken, so have the critics and apparently so have the band.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from MoonlitKnight

    Where I would disagree the most is with the notion that commercial success is one of the ingredients of what makes a song a “classic.” It makes little difference if a song is mentioned a lot or gets more airplay. Most pop music by definition involves a trade-off between inventiveness and commercialism. Millions listened to, danced to, and bought albums filled with disco music in the mid-to-late 70s; that didn’t make the music “classic.” Also if you look outside the music world from film to art to automobiles, “classic” is defined as something that pushes the creative envelope, something not necessarily designed for large-scale mass consumption.

    I would disagree as well but it needs to be measurable to an extent, otherwise it's up to anybody's taste to decide what's a classic and if you read carefully, I specifically said it's a mix of several factors. A song like Invisible Touch can be polarizing among Genesis fan but the general public made it a monster hit. The song has featured in any tour since release, it was played in 2007 and it was played now. I'm sure there's isn't a single doubt in anybody's mind it was going to be included. Abacab is a hybrid, not as artistically acclaimed as its predecessors, not as commercially successful as its successors, as I said it never ranks particularly well in any poll but yes, it has a few fans and there are a couple of good songs there. Again though, while we don't know the reasons why, we cannot dismiss the fact that it was dropped completely by the band, long before Phil had drumming and singing limitations but to be honest if it had happened with an album or songs I fancy, what the band think wouldn't change the way I feel or my enjoyment of it

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from rkive

    For me Genesis "classic" are Gabriel and Hackett Years.


    ATTWT, Duke, Abacab, Mama, IT, WCD and CAS albums are pop oriented. :/

    It is entirely possible to have Pop Classics, Genesis' or less, as I said before, personal taste alone doesn't establish what is a classic

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from MoonlitKnight

    It all depends on your definition of “classic.” By the most strict definition the last “classic” Genesis was found on W & W: Eleventh Earl; One for the Vine; USFTS/ITQE/Afterglow. Hell, some would even claim (incorrectly I think) that the “classic” era of the band ended when Gabriel left. I do think that certain songs post W & W deserve the classic label, with the last song that fits that category being Dodo. It was the last truly prog sounding song they did, complete with bombastic synths and a quirky, inventive keyboard solo (albeit a short one). I enjoy Home by the Sea/Second Home, Domino (though not as much as HBTS), and Fading Lights, but those songs lack the truly inventive qualities of previous songs (including Dodo).

    I gave some parameters which of course can never be entirely objective but based on those for instance, Turn it on again is certainly a classic, Mama perhaps, so no, their classics don't necessarily end with the 5 man era. As I said stuff like I can't dance or IT is far more likely to be mentioned when talking about Genesis because they are relatively recent and were massively successful, it doesn't matter what I think about them, they are classics and they must play them. As I said I think Dodo and M&SJ are fine songs, keep it dark is intriguing and MOTC a nice listen no more than that.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from FeelItComing

    For me the title track, Dodo/Lurker & Me & Sarah Jane are absolute Genesis classics. I put No Reply At All, Keep It Dark & Man On The Corner just below those. It's not a bad track listing.

    I like Dodo and M&SJ but I think sometimes we all should make an effort to move away from the Idea that what we like is a classic. It's a mix of things: consensus amongst the fans, reviews, commercial success, longevity etc... Those songs simply don't cut it in any of those areas. I don't care about any of the above and I still Ike them, nor do I care whether the band like them or less but excellence can never determined by one's taste.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from nes75

    I agree with you, not sure how it’s not a relevant album in the Genesis catalogue. Dodo/lurker, Me and Sarah Jane, Keep It Dark are pretty solid Genesis tunes in my opinion

    Abacab certainly has relevance in the Genesis catalogue, it marked a decisive shift in the way the made music and that alone is enough but I was referring to the songs on it and the fact that even if there are a couple of good tunes on it, they are Genesis after all, none of them imo, really stands out or has a place, amongst their many classics. If we are talking about later period songs, much as I loathe Invisible Touch or ICD, Genesis are far more likely to be brought up in connection with those tunes than with any Abacab songs.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from Thelawnmower

    I love Abacab, even though I generally prefer earlier stuff. At the time I thought it was a good move to change the sound and production. It's very punchy, everything is loud and clear and the drumming is superb. All the Genesis ingredients are there, good tunes, great rhythms, fabulous chords, but a less clutter. I don't know why it was overlooked on later tours, maybe the fact that most of songs on there require powerful and often fast vocals ( if that makes sense, I'm no singer but it sounds like a lots of words per minute on the better songs) ruled out the last tour and they wanted to play so much of WCD that it was pushed out of that tour, can't really explain 2007 though. But I like every track on it except I could leave off Man on the Corner and Like it or Not is a bit of an also ran. I even like Another Record, the drum signature just appeals to me. Whodunnit is fine, a bit of fun with and some great sounds. I'd put the rest up there with the best of their work.

    I agree with some points you made, ir was definitely time to make a change and the Album is cracking with energy, I just happen to find the material very poor or thin. As for the drums, I think the sound is finally great, Phil had done marvellous things before and on this album, if I don't confuse what he sings with how he sings it, he truly shines as a singer. Again, i don't know why it was dropped live but Phil's current limitations cannot be the reason, he sang Mama, to mention one, didn't he? And it was dropped on the 90s, when this wasn't an issue.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from FeelItComing

    They haven't exactly pushed Wind & Wuthering either. They played Afterglow in 2007.

    True and that applies to Trick too but I would say several songs of those albums don't translate well live and they are quite older anyway. Still, unlike Abacab they constantly ranked very high in any Genesis Forum poll you can think of and G members have expressed their fondness whenever they could, I'd say their status is not in question.

  • Nothing from Abacab again

    Quote from FeelItComing

    f they played nothing from it on the last few tours, that does not necessarily mean the band shared your dismissive opinon of it. .

    No, of course it doesn't necessarily mean that, it might though, it's not something you can discard.

    I'm sure there are songs, from other albums, they are not particularly keen on they feel they have to play, for whatever reason but ultimately the fact that Abacab was dropped entirely and consistently probably means something, doesn't it? Whether it's because the band don't stand behind it anymore or they feel the majority of the fans are not crazy about it I really don't know but it's telling. And yes, I am dismissive of it, respectfully but dismissive, I don't think it's a strong album and I don't believe Genesis will be remembered by it.