Posts by absinthe_boy

Quote from MoonlitKnight

Nic mentioned before the tour that he had practiced at least parts of Watcher of the Skies and Supper’s Ready. My impression is that they were at least considering those songs but set them aside due to the difficulty in playing songs like that for the first time in 40 years.

They rehearsed them right at the beginning. No visuals were ever designed for these and it's unclear how long the band spent on them. Possibly as little as one or two tries. Mike and Tony have both stated that they sounded "too old" and the idea of playing them was dropped. They also tried The Musical Box.

Didn't seem to be anything to do with them being too difficult to play. The band just decided they didn't fit with the rest of the set.

I was a bit surprised that Apocalypse in 9/8 didn't emerge, because Nic stated two things in several interviews....that he would only mention titles of songs that made the set and that he specifically enjoyed Apocalypse. But it now seems it was dropped after the very first rehearsal dates.

You and I may well feel this is a shame, as opening to Watcher and having Apocalypse in there somewhere would have been magical...but if they specifically didn't enjoy trying them out, we can't expect them to appear.

I would love to be proved wrong and for Genesis to play themselves out at the O2 with Watcher or Apocalypse. But I shall not be holding my breath.

Quote from raeltheduke

All those songs you guys are making this "petition" is a real FAR cry of what Genesis is about today and has been for the past two decades.

Come on, let's be real, they can't play those songs not only because Phil no longer have the range but also because they are more now about the Genesis trio (post Duke) of the 80's-90's period.

If you want to hear songs like Supper's ready and others from Wind & Wuthering, go see Steve Hackett's Genesis Revisited Band, you'll be happy instead of begging for a miracle.

The simple, if somewhat sad, fact is that.....they could play any of those songs. They could find a way to match Phil's current vocal range, just as they've done with Mama, Duchess and the other transposed songs.

The fact is, they don't want to. Understandably they play what the three of them all want to play. And since 1982 or so, they've not felt like bringing out much of the *really* old stuff. That's not what they want to play, and it's not what the majority of the audience want to hear.

Yes, it's a shame that the men who wrote One For The Vine or Supper's Read will never again play those songs. But it is what it is. Enjoy Genesis for what they are today, because this almost certainly is your last chance.

Steve will no doubt continue for a few more years, his shows are successful. Peter hasn't sung more than a couple of lines of a Genesis song in 40 years. Mike might occasionally add an 80s Genesis hit to a Mechanics set list. Nic reckons Phil will retire again after this. Tony....could theoretically lend his services to guest with any tribute band (or even Steve's) to thunderous and rapturous applause but has never shown any desire to do so. Likely late March 2022 will be the last time he performs anything in public.

Sad, perhaps. But that's what they want. And in the end, they're not our performing monkeys. They're human beings.

Quote from JustALawnmower

I wonder if they'll change the visuals for Land of Confusion to reference/show support for Ukraine?

Sad that some 40 years after the song/video was originally released the subject is still very much alive and real.

I think that people expecting this do not understand the time, effort and money required to make even changes to one song's visuals.

The visuals will not change. And there will be no truly unexpected songs performed live. The only remote possibilities are Jesus He Knows Me or Abacab, both of which have visuals ready to go.

And of course "Match Of The Day" was (and I think remains) the BBC's football show on TV. I don't follow football but that title is part of the national consciousness.

Indeed footballers were known to make a lot of money even back then, but their careers were relatively short. Many bought pubs or nightclubs while still playing at the top so they'd have both a business and a social outlet after they retired. "to clean up" means to make lots of money. So the reference is probably that they "clean up every week" when they earn on the pitch. And the boutique is both a reference to owning a side business and the Monty Python sketch. Football was seen as masculine then so a player opening a boutique was quite Python-esque humour....but it doesn't have to refer to a literal boutique, it could simply mean a small side business too.

"inciting riots, causing chaos, such a shame" is definitely a reference to the football hooligans of the time. As best I can make out, it started out with fan rivalries and ended up with groups of louts who only attended football matches for the violence. By 1977 when this was recorded it was a big problem which grew into the 80s before getting a lot better....but it's still present. A big part of why football has never appealed to me is the fans. I don't have even the vaguest understanding why I must hate Team B if I support Team A. Nor does it appeal to me to insult Team B's players or supporters. But it boiled over into quite sickening violence connected with footballl, even if by the 80s most of the protagonists weren't actually there to enjoy the football at all.

Phil wrote the lyric, one of his earlier attempts, as he is into football. I know he now dislikes the lyric and song in general, but I think it has it's moments....describing the goalies' "arms as long as creepers" is a good one. The more or less light-hearted digs at referees. Musically it is rather light but it helped Genesis in the public consciousness and the "Spot The Pigeon" EP was a significant UK hit before they broke through with FYFM.

I saw an interview with Tony Banks where he said he was never happy with that line as "nobody knows what it means".

I always took the entire song to be about a man who's happy with his lot, employed to tend the grounds at the local park and specifically to mow the grass. And he is OK with that....has no desire to heed the advice of those around him who urge him to do "better" jobs and to climb that social ladder. He's happy where he is. "getting better in your wardrobe" could be a reference to the rather vapid pursuit of fashion clothing or simply refer to skillsets. He knows what he likes, and he likes what he knows....you can "better" yourselves if you want but you may end up less happy than him.

Fountain of Salmacis. Possibly my favourite Genesis song. Never before or after did Tony write or play a more dramatic, swirling chord sequence....the twinkling Hammond over the 'tron during the intro which repeats later in the song is just *perfection*. I love the lyric and the way Peter sings it (ably backed up by Phil). I love Steve's solo near the end and the little flourishes he does throughout. Phil's drumming is mostly subtle on this one...while the main musical motifs are driven along by Mike's perfect bass lines. I'm not sure it ever got better.....though clearly Supper's Ready and a handful of other tracks are in the same league.

Honourable mention to The Musical Box.

Quote from Backdrifter

HP has since said the drums on the album make him cringe now and he wishes they could remaster the album to include acoustic drums.

This is good to know.

Kind of in his defence, a lot of records sounded like that at the time. Though given his desire to make records that sounded like the listener is sitting next to a drummer.....it's an odd choice. IT wasn't out of place for 1986 but it has aged very badly. Maybe they really could redo it with Nic replacing Phil's drums, keeping everything else original and *not* brickwalling it. I'd buy it.

Drum machines, especially in the 80s, had a fresh and new sound and could be programmed by non-drummers to make demos and records. They could also sometimes do things real drum(mers) couldn't. Electric drums, as used by Phil and Bill Bruford in the mid 80s, have not stood the test of time in my opinion.

Not a huge fan of the IT album either, but I can forgive the title track being in the set. It actually sounds better live than on the record, the drums drive it along far better than the rather tepid drum sound on the record....ironic since Hugh Padgham started out wanting to record drums that sounded like you're sitting next to the drummer and not "like so many 70s records, where it sounded like the drummer was in a cardboard box". It's also their biggest US hit, and is well known in the UK. Phil has always enjoyed it.

But another song Phil really enjoys is Supper's Ready. He wanted to play it on the WCD tour for it's 20th anniversary. We know they rehearsed it from Apocalypse onwards in 2020, Nic stated this on many occasions and he enjoyed it. I have a feeling Mike doesn't like it these days. Not wishing to denigrate Mike but his opinion on a lot of the earlier stuff is now the most negative within the band.

People confidently said Phil couldn't possibly sing Mama and he's done it. Albeit at a different key. We don't know what changes they made to the original or whether they tried doing an instrumental but Phil has done a heck of a lot better than most people thought he would.

Quote from LivingForever1999

True, but if they do release a DVD from this tour, I really hope it contains footage from the actual concerts, not just the rehearsal show.

On a separate but related note: I wonder if there's any video of the earlier rehearsals, including some of the songs they rehearsed that didn't make the set, like Abacab, Musical Box, Jesus He Knows Me

Abacab and Jesus almost made the cut....we know that visuals were devised for both and the band have stated they *could* sot Abacab into the set if they wished. Those two may have been recorded in their entirety as part of the "rehearsal" performances.

Other stuff we believe was rehearsed and dropped earlier on such as The Musical Box and possibly Watcher...who knows if they did a couple of shaky dry runs and decided against continuing or if they persevered for a few days. If the latter, it's worth seeing. Watching Genesis stumble through an old classic for the first time in 30-40 years, however, is not something I want to see. I am sure the first rehearsals were ropey - they would be for any musicians.

If we are counting "far away" as a quote from RIpples....then Mike's guitar riff at the end of the jam starts with three notes from Tony's keyboard solo from The Cinema Show. I don't really see either as a conscious throwback to earlier days.

The time Genesis did that was the lyrics included in the studio version of Los Endos. And perhaps Paperlate.

I agree it's a shame there's nothing from Trick on this tour. Los Endos, I do feel it would have been strange without Phil drumming. It's been a showcase for the double drumming for so long now. I'm sure Nic could have aced it...but it would have been strange. Phil and Chester knocked it out of the ballpark together. I do wonder if they could have done Entangled with the backing vocalists on tap.

What really surprised me was that there was nothing from Supper's Ready. Nic appeared to confirm that Apocalypse onwards had made the cut in several interviews, but now it appears that it was dropped quite early in rehearsals. Abacab we know was rehearsed up to the Autumn 2020 rehearsals and there are visuals ready for it, should they decide to slot it into the set. We've seen visuals for Jesus He Knows Me on the documentary too...so presumably that and Abacab were rehearsed and recorded during those performances that were taped in case the tour couldn't go ahead. Maybe we'll get to see those eventually on a Blu-Ray.

It's a fairly safe setlist. It's also a good setlist. The guys had originally talked about Nic giving them the chance to do some really early stuff they hadn't played in decades (Prog magazine interview March 2020) but they've since said they rehearsed stuff and it just didn't sound right - that seems to refer to The Musical Box, Watcher Of The Skies and possibly the aforementioned Apocalypse in 9/8. Shame. Damned shame. Opening or closing with Watcher would have been tremendous for Genesis' last ever tour....but then opening with Behind The Lines and closing with Carpet Crawlers is pretty awesome too.

Listened to three complete concerts now. The only bit I am unsure works is the new working of The Lamb. I know some like it, and I assume the band does, but I could dispense with it. From what both Tony and Nic say, I assume they tried adding the closing section of The Musical Box onto it but decided that didn't work.

The idea that something will be dropped in favour of Abacab seems likely for the upcoming US shows. I can't see them simply adding another 6-9 minutes to the show. That would seem unfair to the British audiences. Abacab was a major hit single here.

I wonder if it might take the place of TIOA? Does that get played stateside? It was not a significant hit there.

Quote from Schrottrocker

Sorry if this has been asked before but will there be a DVD/live CD of the tour? As a continental European I am not going to attend any shows, I would purchase a live disc by any means.

Well....we know the "dress rehearsals" were filmed so that they could be streamed/released in the event of the tour being cancelled due to Covid. Presumably they'll see the light of day in some form.

I'd love for a proper concert Blu-Ray however....I wonder if they'll professionally film (well...video) the three nights at the O2 next week? And possibly use the dress rehearsal footage as extras.

I really want to see a live album on vinyl too.

But....as things stand, we don't know.

And we don't know if they might tour Europe next year. Tony Smith long ago said that the plan was to do these UK/US dates then to see how everyone felt about doing more. Bare in mind that all these hypothetical dates will actually already be booked, because venues this size get booked months or even years in advance. If they want to wait a few months and then continue into continental Europe in the spring of 2022, you can bet the venues are already booked. I know Phil has been quoted as saying it's the end after these upcoming shows....but that interview has not actually been published so we don't know the context. He also seems to be really enjoying performing so even if he was reluctant before, might have changed his mind.

On the DVD/BD/live album and on more tour dates....we just don't know yet.

Quote from thewatcher

I gotta say I'm enjoying the quick appearance of relatively high quality audio and video. Long way from the days of spending an hour downloading a single fuzzy track over dial up!

I remember the very first MP3 I ever downloaded was the CAS launch at Cape Canaveral in 1997. Was that 10 minutes or so? Took me 30 minutes to download and I then popped it onto a cassette because I had just one PC and it was hooked up to a rather mediocre sound system in my bedroom.

Some more thoughts. Obviously watching videos shot on phones and live streamed is not anything like being there. I have at least five friends who were at one of the first two concerts and they all had a great time, including one who was healthily sceptical about what to expect - in terms of Phil's singing and the set list.

I also have perfect pitch so I do always notice songs transposed....but Genesis are far from the only older artists to do this. Elton John has been for many years. The Lord Peter Gabriel himself did when he recorded Lamb overdubs back in the late 90s for the box set. It's not a surprise and not an option to do anything else other than not sing at all. We all get older. Mama sounds even more creepy in the new key than it ever did. And it's supposed to sound creepy. Duchess somehow sounds right. Other songs, feel a bit different. But I would rather hear them sung by the band who wrote them that way than not at all. Remember folks, after this it's Hackett, tribute bands and karaoke.

I'm surprised Apocalypse isn't in the set after everything Nic said. It now doesn't even appear to have been rehearsed in October 2020. I am stull unsure about the new arrangement of The Lamb but I do applaud the guys for spending time and effort on trying something different. Overall the concerts worked. Better than most expected. Musically the band is firing on all cylinders. Phil still sounds like Phil, just an older version. He does come alive on stage and is getting more enthusiastic about his banter with the audience. They'll be in the palm of his hand by the time they get to London.

I managed to catch most of the show on a live stream from the audience. Set list was quite predictable but a good mix of old and new. Phil sounded good for the bulk of the show and really came alive. Started a little weak and sounded like he might be struggling at the end but this is the first show, singers usually get better as a tour goes on.

I was surprised that Apocalypse in 9/8 wasn't there given what Nic said in several interviews. But c'est la vie. Maybe they'll swap things around a bit for the American leg.

Follow You Follow Me was part of the acoustic set. With an interesting new take on The Lamb Lies Down. Will have to listen again to decide what I think of it.

Phil banged the tambourine during IKWIL. He really seems to have come alive. This is not the same frail man you saw on TV last week.

Several clips and live streams. Phil is in pretty good voice and will only get better as the tour rolls on.

Quote from BassAnd12Man

Thanks AB. I hope my point didn't come across as trashing MR, as that was absolutely not my point. Quite the contrary, having learned so many of his bass and 12-string parts, I have the utmost respect for his playing ability and he is, in fact, vastly underrated on both instruments. It was simply a series of observations from the interview. As you said, there are probably logical answers for their various levels of "excitement" about the tour at the moment.

As far as coming alive on stage, I've seen it many times... Many years ago, I participated in a Sirius XM Townhall interview of Roger Waters in NYC. On mic, his age definitely showed. He was severely myopic and obviously had pretty intense hearing loss, among other things. However, the next evening, on stage, it's as if someone had injected him with "super juice" lol. It's interesting but I guess 50 years on the road will do that to you. Take care, Andre.

Oh you did not come across as trashing Mike. I was worried that I might be seen as trashing Mike because I have posted some criticism of him - notably him being the one who doesn't want to play older material...making excuses about not remembering tunings and so on. So I wanted to make it clear that I don't wish to trash Mike, who is a hugely important and integral part of every incarnation of Genesis and who wrote or co-wrote some fantastic songs.

Interesting memory of Roger Waters there. He's started to look old in recent times too. With Phil, I think a little of Brian Wilson...who we all know is somewhat mentally frazzled and has back problems. I've witnessed him shuffle on stage like a 90 year old man, tentatively begin a gig and by 20 minutes in he's got the attention of every single person in the theatre. By the end he picks up his bass and dances around. Even more interesting, knowing he can be a bit nervous on stage I checked with his "people" before I saw him in 2004 (4th row, SMiLE tour) that it would be OK to take photos with a long lens. I was advised "Brian will turn away from you if he's not comfortable"....well he smiled and mugged for my camera and put on a great show. When I saw him 6 years later, similarly equipped with a SLR camera word got back to me later that he'd recognised me! Not 100% relevant to Genesis but it does all show that aging performers who might seem reluctant and frail when they are interviewed can be 100% with it and capable on stage. Phil seems to come alive when he sings. Hopefully that will be the case for this tour and everyone will have a great time.

Quote from BassAnd12Man

I'm glad you said it AB, as I was thinking the exact same thing. Rutherford is the one who seems to have a pretty strong disdain of earlier material (ok, that might be strong wording) whereas Banks would play way more of it if he had the final say. I think Phil, as evidenced by his attendance of a Musical Box show (and playing one one song) several years ago has also come around to the earlier stuff. In fact (flame throwers coming my way), reading their body language in the BBC morning show interview, I got the distinct impression that Mike was the most gung-ho (by far) in doing this tour whereas Phil was not super enthused (understandably) and Tony was somewhere in the middle. Yes, this may be reading tea leaves but that's the impression I got.

Phil initially wasn't too keen on the 07 tour either....He'd been told it was a few concerts in major cities rather than a full on tour. You can see the moment he realises it's more than he thought in the documentary on the Rome DVD set. If I remember correctly, there was the stillborn project circa 2003 to remount The Lamb with Peter and Steve. That would also not have been a full on tour but perhaps a dozen or two concerts in major cities around the world. When Pete wouldn't/couldn't commit they decided Steve's involvement was moot and started planning concerts with the 80s/early 90s version of Genesis. Phil was still under the impression this would be 20 concerts...not the 50 or so they ended up doing.

However it is also Phil who has shown the way for this upcoming tour....his "Not dead yet" tour was on and off for two and a half years. Taking time to rest between relatively short tour legs, it's pretty much a new concept and one that works really well for older artists or anyone who might want to see their family, for example.

As for Mike, I do not want to trash him. He's been in integral part of Genesis from the start and of The Mechanics for nearly 40 years. He helped write some of my favourite Genesis songs, and The Mechanics have a few really good ones that I like too....he was a phenomenal bass player in the 70s and I don't want to take anything away from that. But it does seem that Mike is the one who doesn't want to play the old material. Tony would probably happily do One For The Vine and even Hogweed if given the chance. I am beginning to think that after this is all put to bed, Tony could consider touring a show featuring his favourite music - Genesis and otherwise....assuming he doesn't feel like guesting with Steve. But then Tony isn't much of a performer. He'd probably be just as happy listening at home in his slippers. He's the one Genesis member who does talk about listening to the old Genesis albums.

Mike is probably more enthusiastic about the road, he's been touring with The Mechanics during the Genesis hiatus. He's never stopped making new music or touring. Tony has made his orchestral music and gained a lot of satisfaction from finding acceptance by many classical enthusiasts but hasn't toured. Phil took a long time out. Mike is the most "road ready". So it is not so surprising that he's encouraging the others. he's also specifically encouraging Phil, hopefully of the belief that touring is good for his old friend. Phil seems to come alive when he takes the stage. A little like Brian Wilson, perhaps being involved in making music is therapeutic for him.

Me, I'm just a lawn mower....I find mowing my grass is therapeutic!

Quote from pcontos

I think that it is one of the older songs that they all really like. I think that is part of the problem with them playing old material. I think it is hard for all three of them to agree on certain older songs. The ones that they do play, it seems that they all still feel strongly about. Most bands are critical about their past and Genesis is one of the most critical.

I know their attitudes to some of the older material have changed too. Those of us who remember the VHS "Genesis - A History", Phil clearly states that he's not exactly proud of some stuff from their past...that he's more proud of Invisible Touch than the prog songs. These days he's more enthusiastic about the older prog material, especially Supper's Ready.

Mike seems to have gone off a lot of the older material and prefers the sheen and gloss of the 80s songs. If you watch the 2007 interviews that went with the remasters, Tony certainly rediscovered some moments in Trespass that he'd forgotten. Of all of them I get the impression it is Tony who actually listens to the old albums. But clearly Phil has done some listening recently, he gave an interview where he was talking about how Get 'Em Out By Friday is almost a funky drum groove. I am certain that was not in the rehearsal material. I am equally sure it wasn't on Phil's 90s or noughties play list.

Whether that all results in them actually playing something they haven't since the 70s or early 80s is still a bit of a mystery. Moonlit Knight looks certain to appear in some form, but while it was dropped from 83 to 07, it is still something of a favourite on other tours. Didn't they do a bit of it on the CAS tour too?

I actually reckon they won't do IKWIL and Firth of Fifth this time out. The selections from Selling England will be Moonlit Knight and Cinema Show. I really doubt they'd do four songs from that album.