Posts by BassAnd12Man

Quote from Backdrifter

Carpet Crawlers, Cage, IKWIL, the snippets of Moonlit and Slippermen (then at some shows NYC and The Knife). More than 2 but I never thought about how few there were. It was my first Genesis tour and I was just excited to be there, didn't really bother too much about which eras were represented. Admittedly I had hoped my first Genesis shows would come with the lavish presentation I'd heard about so was a teeny bit disappointed, but it showed that even with the basic lights they could still make it visually distinctive, more so than most other bands of the time.

I really liked the Encore set and yes, with their ubiquitousness today it's somewhat lost how mindblowing it was to see lights change colour and move. It was smart to keep the varilites stationary for the first few songs so that when at that "must die...." moment in Dodo a whole bank of them swept inwards, it was quite stunning.

I've got just over 48 hours until my first show and regardless of the set I will enjoy it. I've mainly managed to avoid setlist spoilers and you didn't mention specific songs so your comment here is in a weird sort of demilitarized zone! It gives me a flavour of the set without actual song spoilers. Oh well. I said I'd avoid this board completely once the tour started but haven't so it's mainly my own fault that my unawareness has been chipped away at!

That was the UK setlist. In North America, we got the intro of Dancing with the moonlight knight which went straight into Squonk. And no knife; again, a UK song only.

I can give you some random thoughts on the tours I actually saw.... My first was W&W so that will always remain as my favorite. To see Hackett (unbeknownst to us) for the last time live was incredible. The setlist was great, the lighting/lasers were great, etc. I was too young to have seen any prior tours so.... ATTWT was visually stunning, the setlist was cool (who thought we'd ever hear Fountain of Salamis) but I remember thinking that Stuermer was well.. "not" Hackett.... I never appreciated his "scale" solos in Fountain or in the Cage though I completely respect his talent and love his work on Jean-Luc Ponty's Cosmic Messenger. Duke, to me, was a letdown. I didn't like the setlist (only 2 Gabriel era songs were played and one was a brief intro - Dancing with the moonlight knight), the lighting was significantly pared down from prior tours and this is when Phil really became a "screamer" live, which I never liked (much prefer his '76-'78 voice). I preferred the Abacab/Encore tours because of the advent of Varilights (nothing can describe seeing those monsters for the first time in December of 1981) and the solid setlist, especially in August of '82. The downside of the latter is that I was at the infamous Jarry Park show in Montreal (look it up) where we were greeted (at the end of the show) by the Montreal police riot squad in full gear. I really never connected with any of the subsequent albums in the '80s so my next live show was at Giants Stadium in 1992. Horrible. Basically , IT and WCD sprinkled with a few older teasers (kind of like the current setlist). That and the fact that I was sitting 25 miles from the stage. Considering that my first show was in front of 8000 people, it was definitely different. I also attended 2007 in Philly which was disappointing to me mainly because of all the key changes and such, but I was more forgiving in that we all expected this to the the last tour. Anyway, some quick, very random thoughts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions.... unless you can't bypass Facebook's negative algorithms (dig intended). All kidding aside, Genesis is one of those bands that has a clear divide (even multiple divides in their timeline amongst fans) for many so yes, heated conversations do occur on a number of topics. And they won't stop anytime soon lol.

Quote from Backdrifter

Thanks for posting that. It's one of the better mainstream media pieces I've seen.

Always amuses me though that they're cited as having done "20-minute epics" (ie, one).

Interesting when artists mix up their own timeline; Rutherford says Duke was helped by Face Value's success.

I'm assuming that he means in retrospect as Face Value was released a good 9-10 months (I think?) after Duke. Duke was extremely popular in the US at its release with Misunderstanding permeating the airwaves. I remember that cheesy video filmed on a convertible ride in LA.

Quote from MoonlitKnight

In the US, the EEOC has ruled that vaccine mandates by private companies are legal and enforceable. The caveats are for legit medical and religious reasons. As I see it, if a bakery can refuse to bake a cake for a couple because they’re gay (the Supreme Court said that was constitutional) then a company should be able to require vaccines for the sake of the safety of all employees at the facility.

Hi MK. I"m not debating the point, I'm just saying that the fallout, given how polarized the US is politically, will not be gentle, regardless of political decisions. That was all I wanted to raise.

Quote from thewatcher

To be clear, I thought the actions I 'read' in the misread version were harsh (setting fire to the workers). I think the actions that i subsequently read when I actually opened my eyes (firing the workers) is perfectly ok

This is happening more and more in the US, i.e., threatening to fire unvaccinated workers or actually planning to do so. I can see a major shit storm brewing on the horizon; this will not go down smoothly.

Quote from BassAnd12Man

593, to be exact. For the record, I am pro science and pro vax. However, I can't very nervous when I see corporations take such draconian measures. I can't imagine these kinds of actions won't end up as class action lawsuits but I"m not a lawyer....

I get very nervous....

Quote from thewatcher

Not a misheard lyric, but a misread headline.

Glancing at the Guardian (us edition) I saw "United Airlines: carrier sets fire to nearly 600 workers for defying vaccine mandate".

Cripes, that's pretty harsh I thought!

593, to be exact. For the record, I am pro science and pro vax. However, I can't very nervous when I see corporations take such draconian measures. I can't imagine these kinds of actions won't end up as class action lawsuits but I"m not a lawyer....

Quote from The_Genesis_Archive

Oh their Vienna footage from 1978 is a nice surprise of course.

TGA

I was at this exact show in July, '78 (on the 12th). Nice to see some video. Oh, the memories.....

Quote from thewatcher

ry really interesting. Pre-CD and mp3, I made a cassette of only that version of CC repeating over and over and used to fall asleep to it!

This is also interesting. Would like to know if SH pioneered the fretboard tapping technique.

That's up for discussion. Was he doing it very early (especially in rock)? Yes. Examples are all over Nursery Cryme. Was he the first? No. Others used it before him. There are plenty of examples that you can find going back to Paganini lol. In rock, Canned Heat is often cited as an early example of tapping. Despite all of this, it is a fact that EVH attended the Genesis SEBTP shows at the Roxy in LA in late '73 and he also clearly acknowledged Steve's influence in this area. So there you have it....

Quote from Backdrifter

Re above remarks from Art Vandaley and Liquid Len. Something about the process of typing opinions (about most things but more so politics) into a device screen often skews/renders them into deep polarisation. Everything, EVERYTHING, is EITHER apples OR oranges - there is nothing else, NOTHING, and depending on whether you prefer the apples or the oranges you are WRONG WRONG WRONG and utterly beyond help. And even when an exchange begins more moderately than that it all too often collapses into matter vs antimatter.

My own perception is that this polarisation in public discourse has intensified during the last 5 years or so. I've always enjoyed a heated exchange - I am that customer in the Monty Python sketch, "I'd like to have an argument please" - but have found these recent years I'm frequently sucked into a battle of extremes, exacerbated by the fact that each 'side' is utterly convinced it's the other lot who are the worst when it comes to splattering insults or existing in a 'bubble' or 'echo chamber'.

If not already apparent from previous posts I do have a 'side'. While I don't consider myself a "lefty" I do get called that by people of whom I'm more than a picometre to the left, but while having never voted Labour in any context I see myself as left of centre. Not that I'm sure there is a 'centre', more a sort of barren demilitarised zone. From where I am I see left and right going at each other like Alien vs Predator.

I'm not trying to paint myself as Lord Arbiter of Balance, I know I've been guilty of lashing out but having seen others doing it I'm more conscious of reining myself in if I feel the gorge rising. I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard!

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Good post Backdrifter. And while we would probably disagree in regard to our political views (I lean right/Libertarian), I nonetheless would respect any opinion you'd put forth. The problem, however, is that this type of civil discourse doesn't generate "clicks" and by extension, marketing dollars, so this tends to get squashed in favor of the cutthroat, polarized arguments that are commonplace on social media. I found this interview on last week's Bill Maher show quite illuminating and also depressing, quite frankly:

Quote from Fabrizio

I appreciate that but it's a two way street, fans who for whatever reason and trust me there are a few don't like the idea of this tour and I'm certainly in that camp, read and saw umpteenth comments over how great this is going to be and I don't remember those comments ever irking me. I have quite draconian views about this tour, even more so after the first sound bites but I see no reason to rain on anyone's parade, I do, however, reserve the right to discuss the music and the performance.

As for the bad reviews, again I didn't think the guy in the video said anything false or incorrect, I trust there would have been bad reviews even if they had been at the top of their game, we are talking about Genesis after all. They knew they were going to expose themselves to that, particularly given the shape they are in. They are right not to care, fans shouldn't either IMO.

I don't think we're in disagreement Fabrizio. It's a free world (well, a good chunk of it anyway) so we can all make our decision to go or not go, or express whatever opinions we might have (I'm always respectful of any and all opinions - yes, even on the internet, the land of so many arseholes). As far as draconian, I go back to March '77 in terms of Genesis Shows so believe me, it's also jarring for me to see some of these videos. But I"m viewing this as a final opportunity to say goodbye to a band that I've loved for 45+ years. It's Friday, it's been a longggggg week and my brain is fried lol. Have a good weekend.

Quote from Fabrizio

I could never bring myself to mock them, I love them and respect them too much but none of the things this guy said are incorrect or false, up to everyone to decide how to react to what is an objective state of the situation. There will be , in my view justified criticisms, just don't mind them.

---

See, I was on board and agreed up until this final comment, I don't believe not attending is having unrealistic expectations, if fact what could be more realistic than not attending because they are no longer able to deliver? Different fans simply have a different take on what's going on and it's quite Ok.

I'd be surprise to know the band are reading or even caring about the reviews, I really don't picture them browsing the internet with anxiety the next day. THEY KNOW, what their current level is.

What I really think it's important is the Gents are having a good time and so are the people going to the gigs. The rest doesn't really matter.

Hi Fabrizio. I think my last point really referred to the umpteenth comments that I've seen all over the internet to the effect that they don't sound like 1977 or 1980 or 1981, etc. Nope, and they won't. But as you say, and I agree, everyone is free to attend or not based on what they view as ok for them or not. As far as the band goes, I would be surprised if they read any reviews from fans.

What annoyed me the most was his constant use of "Phil Collins and Genesis". I'm reminded of attending Genesis concerts in the very early '80s when there were invariably people shouting out Phil Collins solo material, especially around 1981. Urghhhhh.

As far as his comments, yes, Phil is not doing great, yes the songs are significantly transposed to lower keys, yes, he needs to sit down because of disc-related issue and surgery. The past is gone, the future is not here and all we have is "now", warts and all. I also have serious misgivings about seeing this show (which I am seeing) but I've gotten to a place where I'm not expecting Genesis, circa 1977 or 1980 or even 2007. Just as when I look in the mirror in 2021, I don't see he 1976 version of myself lol.

People are free to attend or not at the end of the day but having these unrealistic expectations that can't possibly be met is .... fill in the blank.

Quote from Backdrifter

Based on that and pretty much the rest of it that writer was clearly a championship twat. The stuff about French food and the "females only" remark... No doubt the type of person who bemoans that we can no longer freely use derogatory terms about foreigners would deride us for being "offended", which I'm personally not, I'd just rather not see this sort of lumpen stupidity on display.

Other than that I'm surprised by the alleged Hackett lawsuit thing, I'd never heard of that. What's the source of the current "vibe" you refer to?

Hi Backdrifter. Well, it seems that Steve puts a jab in at his former teammates once in a while still. The R-Kive video stuff (whatever it was called) was a fairly recent example of that where he started bitching at Banks, in particular. And I'm probably reading way too much into this but there's a part of me that thinks that the recent post by Nad Sylvan might actually be a frustration also shared by Steve (i.e. that they're "competing" with Genesis at the moment). All silly really since we can enjoy both.

Quote from The_Genesis_Archive

More about those mirrors -

https://thegenesisarchive.co.u…-record-mirror-11th-june/

Micron!

TGA

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Geez, I re-read the interview and it's an interesting one. I stopped counting how many times the author refers to the French as "the Frogs". Being French-Canadian, that doesn't go over terribly well and would absolutely never be in an article written in 2021. But 1978 was a long time ago..... I was also reminded of how acrimonious Hackett's departure was (at least from his side). He really comes off as an ass (sorry) in this interview (and I remember reading many similar interviews around 1978 in the music press). And you still get a sense of that "anti-Genesis" vibe from him on occasion, even in 2021, an odd thing since he's playing a Genesis Show! I wish they would just let things go but musicians being musicians (many are emotionally stuck in their teenage and young adult years, even in their '70s), I"m not holding my breath. I should scan and upload the ancient articles I have about Genesis too; it's interesting to read some of that stuff 45+ years later...

Quote from Backdrifter

It's far from unknown for fans to strongly prefer 70s over 80s/90s or vice versa, I've rarely known other bands or artists inspire such division of preference.

But it is the same band - not the same line-up of course but certainly the same trio that played a huge part in creating pieces such as Apocalypse and Cinema Show. When I listen to the 80s stuff I hear the same band with the same talent, skill and creativity but applying it in different ways. Ways that some fans don't like, which is fair enough. To suggest there may be some cognitive dissonance is a little extreme but if there is some, I'd say it's travelling in the opposite direction that you seem to be suggesting.

I do share your dislike of the shiny clattery 80s sound that found its way on to IT.

Yup, I do agree with the two-way nature of any potential cognitive dissonance, i.e., '80s/'90s fan not at all getting the '70s stuff. When I express these opinions, I try to be considerate (and not demeaning) of any viewpoint that might be diametrically opposed to mine. And yes, the core trio did write things like 9/8, Cinema Show, etc. I don't begrudge them for changing; many prog bands (ELP, Gentle Giant) died a quick death in the early '80s. Gabriel changed drastically too but it still feels quite innovative. Anyway, some random quick thoughts....

Quote from thewatcher

As someone who enjoys those albums roughly equally (neither would be in my top tier of favorite Genesis albums), I am genuinely curious why you think this. I enjoy Watcher and Can Utility about as much as Tonight Tonight Tonight and the Brazilian. Not too gone on IT title track or In Too Deep, and I find Time Table is a bit shallow and twee.

Big part of the reason I love Genesis - the depth across their catalogue. And yes, very much peace.

As for the setlist, I don't think it's about 'new' fans or 'old'. I would expect new fans to be totally agnostic about the material era. They'll have decided by themselves if they prefer the old music, or the really old music, or the ancient music. I'll say no more as we're not in the spoilers thread.

Hi Watcher. To put is simply and bluntly, those are 2 different bands to me. Having said that, there are songs here and there that I like in their '80s material but it tends to be 1-2 songs per record as opposed to entire '70s albums. There's just no comparison to me. When I listen to IT, I hear a soundtrack to Miami Vice; that cheesy synth pop/electronic drum stuff that was all over the airwaves at that time. We can be diametrically opposed in our viewpoints, that's fine, but I did want to candidly answer your question.

Quote from Dr. John

In terms of the key changes, here is a run-down according to my ear:

Duke's suite - original key

Turn It On Again - G (two whole notes lower)
Mama - C minor (two whole notes lower)

Land of Confusion - B minor (two whole notes)

Home By the Sea - C minor (two whole notes)

Second Home By the Sea - E minor (original key) - he sings the last lines differently so he avoids the higher notes

Fading Lights - E (3.5 whole notes lower than the previous live key)

Cinema Show - original key

Afterglow - E (1.5 whole notes)

That's All - C# minor (two whole notes down)
The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - C (two whole notes)

Follow You, Follow Me - F (one whole note)

Duchess - G (two whole notes)

No Son of Mine - D minor (one whole note)
Firth of Fifth - original key(s)

I Know What I Like - F (two whole notes)

Domino - Bb (two whole notes)

Throwing It All Away - A (two whole notes)

Tonight, Tonight, Tonight - E (1.5 whole notes)

Invisible Touch - C (3.5 whole notes)

I Can't Dance - G (1.5 whole notes)

Dancing With the Moonlit Knight - Am (two whole notes)

Carpet Crawlers - C (two whole notes)

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Those are MAJOR transpositions. As you said, some songs might be ok in different keys but many just fall flat (pardon the pun). Thanks for your list.

Quote from Methos

It is what it is. If it bothers someone so much, and I get that it's difficult at times, I would just not go.

As far as getting lyrics wrong - LOL! I get Beatle song lyrics wrong when I play them live and I've known these songs for 50 years! The brain doesn't work at 50, let alone at 70 as it does when you are 20.

When I was younger, I saw singers using lyrics, including Gabriel in his shows in 02 and was like WTF! Then when I started to perform, I got a quick awakening.

You're right Methos. But like many older fans, it's a last chance at seeing band that we've followed through our teens, '20s, '30s, '40s, '50s .... you get the point. I was in a Genesis tribute band for many years so I definitely can empathize with flubs (I was thrilled if I had 2 or less per 2.5 hour show). Unfortunately, YouTube and social media tend to show every wart whereas in the moment, those things are more forgivable.