Posts by StillCan'tDance

Quote from The_Genesis_Archive

Me personally? I wouldn't have spent close to £500 on a series of Boxsets for the stereo mixes, if I already had the remasters series from 1994 on the shelves already. For that price tag it was always about the surround mixes and the format (SACD) and (DVD-A). That swung the decision for me.

Regards

Mark

Too right. Each album was presented with a stereo, SACD and DVD-A mix in addition to DVD extras including new interviews, promo videos and 'live' footage. If bought as part of the box set, fans were treated to an additional disc of B-sides, all newly mixed in the three formats already mentioned and an interview with the band about those songs.

I always find it best to vote instinctively rather than ponder over the choices. So I immediately went for Face Value and Both Sides but really I find a level of consistent brilliance and invention on all the albums right up to and including Dance Into The Light (Testify didn't register with me and still fails to while Going Back, whilst respectable enough, will never replace the original versions of those songs for me.

So, why Face Value and Both Sides? Well, his debut album just bristles with enthusiasm and spontaneity. The strength of Phil's material is in its immediacy (his songs don't hang around waiting to be liked, as one critic put it) and his ability to capture magic in a bottle is second-to-none. He doesn't overwork the material, he uses his demos and gets the very best session player onboard to replicate what he's recorded on his own. On Face Value, he has Ravi Shankar, Eric Clapton, John Giblin, The Phenix [sic] Horns, Alphonso Johnson, Daryl Stuermer and Stephen Bishop on hand to bring his demos to life. And how!

Face Value remains his most satisfyingly diverse collection of songs, which is why it's in my top two.

Now, we come to Both Sides. Phew, this is a difficult listen! I don't mean that in the same way that Metal Machine Music is a difficult listen or Trout Mask Replica is a difficult listen. The music on Both Sides is as beautifully constructed as anything he's arranged before. But the lyrics really plumb the emotional depths of a man in misery. Torn between two lovers, he knows that ultimately happiness can be found with neither of them and he lays out his feelings on this album in a brutally honest way. Musically, this album is his greatest achievement. And he pulls it all off with some very convincing sounds on the emulator.

Both Sides is as close to perfection as he's ever got but it's a far from cheery listen.

Quote from The_Genesis_Archive

Threw out loads of stuff over the years, wish I had kept it of course. One of the most enjoyable recordings I do have is The Master Of Marquee.

Wish I'd held onto those Soundboards.

Regards

Mark

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Well, I may have you beaten in regards to regretting getting rid of this sort of stuff. I used to tape interviews off the radio. I had the Compleat Collins which was a series done by Radio One with Mike Read interviewing Phil about his career up to and including But Seriously. I had a great interview that Genesis did with Gary Davies, again on Radio One, for the release of We Can't Dance. I had an interview with Phil done by Paul Gambaccini for Both Sides (this featured an impromptu performance of Strawberry Fields by Phil). All of these priceless recordings and more.

A few years back, clearing out the loft, I threw the whole lot out, thinking I'd never be able to listen to them again because I no longer have a stereo system. None of these interviews has since appeared on any of the torrent sites to which I subscribe. Lost forever. I am such a fool

Quote from Noni

Firstly, if I offended you, I deeply appoligise.... I'm not here to offend. In regards to the subject matter, any heavy metal music does not gel with me, it's purely on the listener.. I like positive music that gives me joy

Thank you, Noni. As you can tell, on both a personal and a work-related level, the issue of mental illness is something very close to my heart and I get very protective over my disability and the well-being of those in my care.

Now, as you say, back to the music

Quote from genesis1964

Started this morning with my favourite Phil Collins album

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For quite a while, Phil didn't rate this album that highly. I think his feelings were coloured by the fact that the only single from the album to achieve success was a cover version. The first single, Thru These Walls, was not a big hit (hardly surprising, given the subject matter and the rather lazy use of "that" drum fill which he admitted to biographer Johnny Waller in the eighties was a "mistake"). Also the cynicism of lyrics such as I Cannot Believe It's True (a scathing attack on his wife who was increasingly asking for more money in the divorce settlement) and It Don't Matter To Me as well as the unbridled anger of I Don't Care Anymore and Do You Know, Do You Care might be a tad embarrassing to him now.

Revisiting the album for the remix he recognised he'd been "a bit harsh" in his assessment. There's some beautiful work here. Don't Let Him Steal Your Heart Away could be a Paul McCartney song and then there's the tribute to the Buddy Rich big band sound with The Westside. The uptempo numbers may be treading the same ground as some of the tunes on Face Value but there's a brightness to them that's hard to ignore. Overall, I think the album is a perfect companion piece to Face Value.

Quote from genesis1964

Now I have moved on to

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This is a very "Sunday" album to me. Sombre, reflective and moody. I read recently a comment from Steve Hackett who said that the lyric to Inside And Out (from the Spot The Pigeon EP of material recorded for this album) was written by Phil. This surprised me. It's a great piece of social commentary (addressing the issue of date rape long before the issue was spoken about as openly as it is now) that would have fitted well on the album along with the other social piece, the outstanding Blood On The Rooftops.

Quote from Noni

Great!!

Might I suggest greater tact on your part? I note the speed with which you posted this useless remark. Better to think before you type in future, or best not to type at all. Not only are you causing direct offence to someone with a registered disability but also to a great many others whose mental well-being I value greatly as a mental health advocate.

When I started I resolved to only collect soundboard and pre-fm material. Over time I've opened up and I'm glad I have. There are some vital audience recordings out there. One that springs immediately to mind is the show at The Marquee in 1982. An audience recording from an intimate venue such as The Marquee not only captures the band performance really well but you can also hear some of the comments from the crowd which are funny and good-natured and give a great example of the relationship between the group and the crowd. Hearing them singing along to Supper's Ready, whilst something of a disctraction for the listener and, I'm sure, the band themselves, is quite a moving experience.

Quote from Noni

I don't think COT was referring to personal issues!..

We are talking about music!!..........

Can we actually enjoy what we hear!.........

I don't give a tinker's cuss what you enjoy; this is the comment to which I was responding: "due to their ability to make the listener think, with lyrics that rise above those of the popular rock and roll metal bands who tend to promote a lower consciousness by singing of depression"

Whilst I'm sure the original poster would appreciate your robust defence, your ambivalence to the remark really makes you part of the problem as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from CyanideWand

I find your comment insulting. Also, there is no way I am doing double work and posting everything here.

Facebook is for children. And your petulance does nothing to persuade me otherwise.

Quote from CountingOutTime

While I can appreciate the talent most metal guitarists have, I have to agree with Noni and say that their repetitive riffs can sound a bit monotonous. As for metal vocalists who are trained opera singers, like Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden and James La Brie of Dream Theater, I personally cannot stand that style of singing. Screaming your lyrics is not a talent. I do enjoy some of the classic metal bands though, like Uriah Heep, Scorpions, Triumph.

Now, if you move from the popular rock and roll metal genre and into the less popular progressive metal genre, there are numerous bands that I enjoy; ie, Riverside, Ayreon, Haken, etc, due to their ability to make the listener think, with lyrics that rise above those of the popular rock and roll metal bands who tend to promote a lower consciousness by singing of depression, devil worship, apathy, etc. I think the progressive music genre, in general, displays a much more positive attitude in their music than does heavy metal.

As Noni was saying, one person may not always like what another person listens to. I certainly don't.

If you're going to criticise something, then it helps to know what you're talking about as opposed to simply throwing out glib remarks that have no basis in the truth. Iron Maiden's lyrics deal with a whole host of issues from history (Alexander The Great, Run To The Hills, Paschendale, Empire Of The Clouds) to sci-fi (Somewhere In Time, To Tame A Land) to popular literature (Rime Of The Ancient Mariner, The Phantom Of The Opera).

You mention depression and Iron Maiden have written about that, too: Still Life and Tears Of A Clown (which deals with the death of Robin Williams). Should bands not write about depression? Do you know not think that mental health awareness is something that should be encouraged? Rather than promoting a "lower consciousness" these songs encourage open-mindedness about the issue of depression, something which affects a huge amount of teenagers (a demographic who make up a large proportion of heavy metal fans because they find the passion and sheer volume of the music very appealing, if only because it annoys their parents).

As someone who was diagnosed with depression seven years ago and as someone who is a mental health advocate, working with Time To Change, an organisation who helps raise awareness of mental health issues, working in the community with many young people who find it hard to open up about their mental health, I find your remark deeply offensive. Comments like yours serve as a sad reminder of how much work has to be done to remove the stigma of depression from society. Shame on you.

Thanks. The only thing missing that I've ever picked up on is the ambient bar noises on Get 'Em Out By Friday. On previous versions, you can clearly make out a bell ringing to signal last orders. That doesn't appear on the new mix. The alternative vocals have completely passed me by - are you sure you're not just picking up on vocals that are now much clearer than they used to be, hence they appear to be new or different to you? Certainly Phil's vocals during Willow Farm about being "changed into a human being" are more upfront than they used to be.

As for the longer versions of Mama and It's Gonna Get Better well I thought it was a damn shame that they didn't use them on the new mix. They're certainly my preferred versions and, in making my own copy of Mama for the car, I've editedthe new mixes with the longer versions and you (almost!) can't see the join. I didn't know they'd claimed not to be able to find the longer versions of Mama and It's Gonna Get Better and I find that a bit suspicious. Why? Because Mama on the new mix is simply the longer mix faded out earlier, rather than the edit that appeared on the original mix, which suggests to me that they hadn't lost the longer versions at all; they (ie Tony Banks) just decided not to use them.

If only Mike and Phil had been more hands on with the new mixes then maybe they could have challenged the decisions being made. But they left it to Tony and this is the result, for better or ill.

Quote from Noni

Music is like art, we cannot always like the same paintings..... I am not into any kind of heavy or metal sounding music... Do not like the guitar riffs they produce and some of their singing can leave a sour taste in my mouth, why singing like a Devil is regarded as great, I don't know?...... Roaring down a mike, strange!..............

What an utterly bizarre comment. Did you not know that the lead singer of one of the most successful heavy metal bands in the world, Iron Maiden, is a trained opera singer? As for the riffing, it's really no different to the kind of virtuoso playing you'll find by such guitar luminaries as John McLaughlin, Steve Howe or even Steve Hackett (listen to the riff he played on Hogweed, itself an inspiration for Iron Maiden's very own Phantom Of The Opera); it's just amplified louder.

"Singing like the devil" indeed. Did nobody ever tell you that the devil has the best tunes?

Yes, I remember listening to the Platinum version of Undertow, too, and hearing harmonies that I'd never heard before.

Quote from FivePastNine

...the 1970-1975 albums...are ruined to some extent by errors such as the use of incorrect vocal takes and missing instrument parts.

Really? Do you have any examples? It's been confirmed by all involved with the project that no alternative vocals were used so I'd be interested to read which vocals you think have been replaced. Regarding instrumentation, I actually hear more stuff going on in the mixes, not less so, again, which parts do you think have been removed?

Quote from AnythingNow

I tried doing torrents maybe three years ago, but I actually found it very complicated. Of course I managed to download some stuff and then help upload it to other users. But, as you understand, I have quite a lot of recordings on CD that I would gladly share, but when I looked at the manual on how to do it I simply thought: I really don’t have the time to delve into all this – too much information! But maybe I was mistaken?

It is complicated. I only tried it once and then got shot down in flames for not doing it properly! So I just download torrents now and leave the torrent open to seed to others.

With Genesis shows, not only do you get the added dynamics and the occasional added guitar solo or a bit of improvisation in the instrumental passages but you also get the wonderful in-between song banter and stories, something that really set Genesis apart from other bands.

Quote from CyanideWand

Just join Facebook!

That's like asking an adult who no longer reads Janet And John books to put down the Gabriel Garcia Marquez book they're reading and go back to the kind of stuff that's only enjoyed by children.

Quote from Ericm

I don't have a fixation about Steve's fame or stature. I was simply replying to your point about his contributions vs the other what you called "core" members, who we can certainly agree as far as Phil and Mike go were and are more famous. It seems to me you're saying because he didn't have the same stature in the band that's your problem with the era thing.

As far as calling it an era, if not that, then what term would you use for Steve's time in the band? Personally I think era is the right word since that's what the definitIon of era is. If you have a better word for it, I'm all ears.

As for the American thing, aside from some slang terms, I think most definitions apply to both of our countries. If you want the intellectual high ground based on ages of our countries, have at it. It's all yours.

It was you who brought up the issue of fame and stature. Twice. Can you tell me where I've implied that Steve's paucity of contributions has anything to do with the fame of other members in the band? By the time he left, neither Phil or Mike were particularly famous so I really have no idea where you're coming from. If you can divorce yourself from the issue of fame and concentrate on simple facts then we'll both be on the same page.

Because I recognise Genesis as having two distinct eras - 1970 - 1977 and 1980 - 1992 - and because I recognise that Steve was not a core contributor to the music, I don't have a name for Steve's time in the band.

Quote from slowdancer

I never succeeded in seeing it that way, simply because You Might Recall is one of my favourite songs from Genesis. There is more great stuff, that didn`t make it on the album. But I understand your point.

I think I took it from Chapter And Verse and, if memory serves, it was Tony who told the story as to why Who Dunnit was picked to go on the record. The late, great Ahmet Ertegun used to refer to Who Dunnit as "that song". He never mentioned it by name but he was also of the opinion that it should go on the record. Opinion be damned; Ahmet knew more than any of us here about how to sell records!

Quote from Ericm

Well it's not so much just my opinion but based on what an "era" is actually defined as.

Definition of era

1 a : a fixed point in time from which a series of years is reckoned

I believe that's exactly what was being cited when referring to "The Hackett Era". The time and years he was in the band. Not what he did or didn't do, how popular or famous he was, or how big or little his contribution was but just simply the years he was a member.

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Leaving aside the lesson in English (from an American, yet!) I maintain that to name an era after someone who had so little to do with the writing and the arrangements just seems perverse. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about fame and stature; given that I mentioned neither, I can't help but wonder about the nature of your fixation.