Posts by Dr. John

    I think the Rogers Waters and Pink Floyd situation is complicated. He definitely made an important contribution artistically with his lyrics and writing the music to many key songs. I also agree that Gilmour and Wright contributed hugely to the music writing and overall arrangements and sound. I agree Mason contributed the least from an artistic perspective, but that said, his relatively plodding and unimaginative playing is very much part of the sound. When you hear Floyd covered by others (including Roger Waters), it can sometimes sound "wrong" in the hands of a more skilled drummer.


    I don't think it is correct to say that a bassist can't contribute as much to a band's sound. People like John Entwistle, Chris Squire, Geddy Lee were all essential components to their respective bands' sounds.


    In terms of the who-treated-who badly aspect, it is impossible to know what really went down. Some people say Waters treated the rest poorly during the latter years of the band. Waters says he's been treated badly. I'm willing to believe there was nastiness both ways and also willing to believe that perhaps more than 50% comes from Waters. Although I haven't followed this issue closely, it seems that Waters was most angry in the earlier years after The Final Cut and then has mellowed more recently. This happens. Lennon was quite sharp and critical of McCartney and The Beatles in general right after they broke up, and then became more balanced about it over time.


    One small correction to the above, Welcome to the Machine is sung by Gilmour, not Waters.

    Although I very much like TSW and TRS, Hounds of Love remains my favourite album. The songs on Side 1 are all strong and The Ninth Wave is an amazing suite that I still find magical.


    Going back to the comments about Rolling Stone and the R&RHoF, I was a faithful Rolling Stone reader from 1980 to about 2000. It has always had a very obvious bias towards American music and music that was either strongly influenced by or was a strong influence on American music. However, since I like a lot of American-based music, it still provided some excellent in-depth interviews and profiles that I learned a lot from. I found the writing became increasingly superficial, which is why I ultimately abandoned it.


    The R&RHoF reflects the same bias. So it makes sense that Eddie Cochran (who released only a few singles and one album but was hugely influential) is an inductee while many other artists who have had substantial careers and fan bases are not yet inductees. I'm actually a bit surprised that Genesis, Yes, Rush, and others have been inducted as they were consistently disparaged and ignored by Rolling Stone and most of the music critics for decades.

    Perhaps, personally though, I'm under the impression and it's been the case for the past decade that he's simply lost drive and motivation. Understandably so, he's 70, I believe, he achieved a lot commercially and artistically and did quite well for himself. Looking back and it a fan's wish, he could have perhaps released a couple of more albums but I'd say he had his say.

    You are probably right in terms of his overall motivation. If he had really wanted to, he would have put out another studio album years ago.


    I'm hoping for just a release of whatever he has worked on. It doesn't need to be a fully-realized album. I'll take a Flotsam and Jetsam part 2 that just collects together all of the songs he's worked on since Up that haven't found another home.

    Firth of Fifth is easier to sing than some Genesis songs, but it still would have to be keyed down a bit for his current range, perhaps by a full step. So either the whole instrumental section would also have to be keyed down or they would have to do some kind of extra transposition into that section.


    The Cinema Show section they do is fine, but I could also have done without it as it has been on many tours.

    The only Eels album I have is Beautiful Freak, which I quite like. So if I were to explore another album, which should I pick?

    I think there is nothing wrong with Steve focusing a lot on Genesis material. This is an important part of his musical history and clearly the part that connects with the largest fan base. Many other artists do this kind of thing. His band does a decent job covering the other parts, but in the end it still feels like a Genesis cover band featuring Steve Hackett and is quite different from experiencing Tony, Mike, and Phil performing something from the same era (acknowledging that Darryl has a very different approach to Steve's parts).


    I also have no beef about Ray playing lots of Genesis material. The world is big enough that anyone who wants to cover Genesis can go ahead.

    It's a slight stretch for the 'new' angle of this thread... I remember hearing Lorde's debut when it came out and liking a couple of tracks. But blimey I like this. I was just poking around old playlists and discovered this down a rabbit hole... I love how it pinpoints the emotional space between teenage spite and adult directionlessness.

    I really like her debut album. I find her second album less interesting - not horrible, just less engaging.

    Genesis does have the advantage of having many members, former and current. So if we go with all 7, I count 100 studio albums, including side projects and bands. As mentioned above, Steve Hackett contributed the most albums by far. I would be surprised if there is another major band that produced as much solo work and side projects.


    The members of The Beatles had 69 studio albums by my count. That's an average of 17 per member, which isn't bad considering that both Lennon and Harrison's lives were cut short. The average for Genesis members is about 14 per member, but needs to take in account that Genesis continued as an entity through the decades whereas The Beatles did all their solo work after the band broke up.

    Not much has been mentioned regarding the redition of "Afterglow" and I'm wondering what you others thought. ( I haven't watched any clips as I want to wait for the show). I ask because just before the pandemic I was in the process of putting a covers band together to do a charity concert of some of my all time favourite songs. I had difficulty finding a singer who could handle Afterglow because of the Key change part way through. This is when I realised that Phil was an even more awesome singer than I had previously thought. I'm a drummer by the way so not a musician. LOL!

    Afterglow would be quite doable for a decent singer in the current key of E. Highest sung note is F# and much of it is considerably lower. The guitar part cannot be played with the same positions in this key, so that would need to be rejigged or the guitarist would have to tune down.

    Good that someone was paying more attention than me. Yes, That's All is only 1.5 steps down and although Carpet Crawlers starts in E (which is what I had in my head), the main song is in D, so they are doing it only 1 full step down. I made the corrections to my original post.

    I have perfect pitch too, and the transition between the two feels... curious, to say the least (like "uh... ok"). It's almost like the two parts are unrelated. C minor is much more moody, E minor is a lot brighter.

    Funny how we feel keys... I feel Duchess in C major (it works great in this version), but it is because I take the chorus as a reference. Tonight is in B minor (very low for me), because I take the verse as a reference.

    I also find the transition awkward. The last lingering chord of HBTS really sets the expectation for the key of 2HBTS. So even though the C minor chord has faded out in this tour's version, I still find it jarring to be back in E minor for 2HBTS. However the transition from Fading Lights to Cinema Show is even more abrupt. I think they could have worked a bit more on that.


    I'm never sure whether it is the verse or the chorus that establishes the key for a song. I guess you are right about Duchess, since the intro is the same key as the chorus, so perhaps that is the "home" key (E in the original and now C).


    Regarding voices deepening with age, sometimes this works well. I agree that I find Geddy Lee kinda screechy on the early Rush recordings and prefer how he sounded a bit later in his career - less range but more warmth. Van Morrison also was a little thin back in the days of Them. By the mid-70s his voices was richer and even in his later career, while he had less range, he had a lot of warmth and heft.

    The whole thing about the key changes is, have they dropped further than the 2007 tour in order to preserve Phil's voice over multiple nights (I was shocked when the extra dates got announced) or can he just not hit those notes *at all*?


    Some tracks it bothered me quite a bit and others seemed to be less affected: No Son Of Mine worked well for example.

    If you look at my list above, you will see that some songs from the 2007 tour were lowered again. For example, Mama was in D minor on the 2007 tour and was lowered to C minor on this tour. TIOA was in A on the 2007 tour and is now in G. Invisible Touch was in D on the 2007 tour (already down 1.5 whole notes) and is now in C.


    Let's be clear, I'm not against lowering keys if it allows Phil to sing the songs better. This is pretty normal practice for many singers as their voices lower with age. Roger Daltrey is one of the few in the same age bracket that still sings most songs in the original keys.

    In terms of the key changes, here is a run-down according to my ear:


    Duke's suite - original key

    Turn It On Again - G (two whole notes lower)
    Mama - C minor (two whole notes lower)

    Land of Confusion - B minor (two whole notes)

    Home By the Sea - C minor (two whole notes)

    Second Home By the Sea - E minor (original key) - he sings the last lines differently so he avoids the higher notes

    Fading Lights - E (3.5 whole notes lower than the previous live key)

    Cinema Show - original key

    Afterglow - E (1.5 whole notes)

    That's All - C# minor (1.5 whole notes down)
    The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway - C (two whole notes)

    Follow You, Follow Me - F (one whole note)

    Duchess - G (two whole notes)

    No Son of Mine - D minor (one whole note)
    Firth of Fifth - original key(s)

    I Know What I Like - F (two whole notes)

    Domino - Bb (two whole notes)

    Throwing It All Away - A (two whole notes)

    Tonight, Tonight, Tonight - E (1.5 whole notes)

    Invisible Touch - C (3.5 whole notes)

    I Can't Dance - G (1.5 whole notes)

    Dancing With the Moonlit Knight - Am (two whole notes)

    Carpet Crawlers - C (one whole note)