Posts by BillysNumber

    ... Some feel the US is becoming a real-life Gilead given the striking down of Roe and all that's ensued.


    I wouldn't necessarily think it's gone that far. Despite all that's happened with Roe and everything as you mention, the endeavor for the empowerment of women across the US is still going strong, as it has been for the last several years. - and although there's still progress to be made of course in certain areas, much progress has indeed been made. I would definitely say it's NOT in any way a LOSING battle right now! So from that perspective, I'd say things are well on track for the US to AVOID becoming like Gilead in the general sense, at least measuring by the standings of the day.


    Anyway though, that is all I will say about that-as I am definitely not one for political debates-especially in a Genesis fan forum. :)

    Since we're between favorites, which are all releasing seasons only once every two years (Handmaid's Tale, The Last of Us, Rings of Power, House of the Dragon and others), we decided to re-watch Lost again as a family. My wife and I watched every episode as they aired originally (before our DVR days) - then having to wait a WEEK to see the resolution of the current episode's cliffhanger ending! We're currently halfway thru season 2-but it's a commitment, cos there's like 18 hour long episodes accross like six seasons! This was before the days when every series only had like six or eight episodes and they're all released at the same time.


    Well, our kids are loving it. And I'll admit, I had forgotten lots about what happened across the series, but I remember plenty-and it's fun seeing our kids try to predict what things are and what's going to happen. I'm like "you have NO idea!! Wait till season five-it'll feel like a completely different show!" It's also kind of nice after 15 years to revisit the series, since it's so jam-packed with foreshadowing and detail it's kind of like seeing it for the first time again!

    I can't find the definitive edition remasters available consistently in none of the music streaming services. Spotify has some, but in most cases the Remix are actually being played, even though the file tag mentions "1994 edition remaster", in the case of Selling England by the Pound, for example.


    And, to complete the tragedy, until some weeks ago the original mixes (but non remastered) WERE AVAILABLE in youtube music, officially in the band's page, and recently they REMOVED them from there! Only the 2007/2008 remixes are there!

    So this ended any hope for me that either the original mixes or the definitive edition remasters (or any non remix version) will ever be featured in those streaming services. Very sad.



    Yeah I noticed that change too...


    Well, you could always get the DERs on CD (they're easy to find and inexpensive), upload them to iTunes-or whatever if you don't have an iPhone-and just play them from your phone that way.


    I know it's not streaming, but that's how I listen to ALL my music. I have over 3500 songs on my iTunes, and I just tell Siri what to play. I don't actually like streaming music, cos I have to get thru songs I may not like as much every few songs-and then there's also ads (if you're not paying for the service, which is a whole nother point about streaming)....

    I've never really gotten too far into vinyl, though ironically the one album I used to own was And Then There Were Three and I thought it sounded terrible on both vinyl and the original CD for being inexplicably thin-sounding yet cluttered at the same time. The 2007 remix was the first time that particular album was anywhere near the same sonic quality as the rest of the catalog in my opinion...


    I'll also add that I'm glad that there are so many options for people to collect and versions to prefer. Every format and every version brings something different to the table and offers some subtle and not so subtle variations on every album.


    I agree about ATTWT. It’s universally known among fans that the album historically has always sounded tinny and washed out. It has to be the way the album was mixed because the albums on either side, Wind and Wuthering and Duke, sound good, especially Duke always sounds fantastic. It always drives me a little crazy because I think the songs on the album are really strong for the most part. If the album was given the TLC it deserved in 1978 it would have sounded great, but I think it was rushed into production. The album cover proves that. Anyway, the remix definitely helps. Songs like Undertow and Deep in the Motherlode sound amazing on the 2007 boxed set.



    Re: the highlighted from both of you here, I guess I didn't think about that! Perhaps the reason I was less happy with the sound of ATTWT over the years is simply cos it wasn't mixed very well to begin with. I agree it always did sound abit...harsh in the high end and messy in general, in just about every version I've heard. And I also agree it's odd that ATOTT and W&W sound great, and then this one seems to drop-off from a production quality standpoint.

    I also do agree that Undertow sounds abit better in the 2007 remix, the toms have much more tonal depth and the low range is much deeper-really giving it a fuller sound. However though, the compression used in the remix again buries the drums once those louder synths come in, to the point where they're almost inaudible. In the Original vinyl the toms do sound flatter, but overall the drums punch thru everything clearly, all the way thru. But the low range is abit weaker. Like I said, it's ultimately a personal preference-based trade off!

    My "perfect" assortment uses the 1994 DER's of A Trick of the Tail, Wind and Wuthering, Duke, and Abacab, with the 2007 remixes of Three Sides Live up through Calling All Stations and And Then There Were Three.


    I really like the 2007 remixes of Trespass through Selling England by the Pound, and though there are a few errors on Foxtrot that bug me, it's not enough to kick it out of the club. The Foxtrot DER is really good too, in case those problems are too much. Likewise, if the extra drums on Trespass bother you the DER is miles ahead of the original CD version but the same original mix.


    I'm currently re-discovering the original CD mix of The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, so it is my current go-to version. Once again the DER is really good too, and the 2007 remix is nice, but some the changes bug me and this is the one album in the entire catalog I think I prefer the grittier sound of the original mix or the DER more than the pristine sound on the remix.


    I've posted this elsewhere, but I'm currently in the process of obtaining the original vinyl releases of the Genesis albums. So far I have ATOTT, W&W, ATTWT, Abacab and IT. And IMO for these that I have so far, ATOTT, W&W and IT sound much better than the remixes, but for ATTWT and Abacab it's a trade-off: In the remixes, the sound is definitely brighter and clearer, with a great balance - especially in the half speed versions. BUT, IMO the remixes in many cases lose the 'magic' that the band achieved in the original mix, with certain sounds being different, effects different or even certain sounds straight up missing! The originals are richer and warmer-and have more of what I call an 'analogue presence'- especially the drums are much more powerful, whereas in the remixes they are sadly quite buried and in some cases, almost inaudible beneath the loudness of the other instruments. Another difference between the 2007 remixes compared to the originals-at least on vinyl is that they are cut not from tape, but from the digital file for these songs-and it's generally understood that you don't get that sense of 'analogue richness' from an album cut from a digital file, as compared to an original-cut directly from the analogue master tapes. Basically if one wants to get the most out of vinyl, it won't do much good to listen to something digitally sourced in that format. So I guess that's a more technical reason for why I've found I'm preferring the originals.


    Although I acknowledge all of that is mostly just if one is listening on vinyl - as opposed to CD. But what I'm really saying is I understand the whole "re-discovery" idea!


    At the end of the day, I suppose it really comes down to the preference of the listener:


    Would you like to hear ATTWT with the drums being more punchy and powerful? Or would you like a brighter and more balanced sound (even though the drums are much weaker in most songs)?


    Would you like to hear the original mix and effects in each of the songs on Invisible Touch? Or are you ok with trading a brighter, more expanded sound with several effects/instruments being changed or even missing (like certain synthesizer sounds in The Brazilian)?


    I am of the same mindset as others on here; I very much enjoy the half speed vinyl releases of the PG era albums, so I will probably stick with those. IMO those are where the remix process really did some good. What I would REALLY have liked is if they released the '94 DERs on vinyl, cos I really enjoyed those - or perhaps even if they did a remaster of the originals now on vinyl. If they did that using the original mixes, I would be first in line to buy them all!

    I DO agree that the PG era albums sound great on the half-speed vinyl versions. In fact, so much so that I'm actually debating whether or not I will even bother to get the originals for Trespass, Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and SEBTP - as IMO the remixes of those sound amazing on vinyl. As for the Lamb though, I've never been extremely happy with the remix on that one. Despite some sonic improvements (like a more powerful low range), IMO some of the way certain songs were remixed changed the original sound and therefore the character in ways I didn't really like as much.


    What I'd REALLY like to do is get the Atlantic 75 Analogue Productions remaster of the Lamb and SEBTP, as I've heard really great things about how they sound. The only problem there is not only having to flip the record a bunch of times since Lamb... would be across four discs, but also they're quite expensive. SEBTP is around $60-$70 I think, and The Lamb is well over $100. That's really the only thing standing in the way for me.

    Greetings fellow fans,


    This might seem like a lot, but I'm not sure where else I should put this. I thought of creating this thread as a way to share an experience I'm currently having regarding Genesis' catalogue - as well as to learn about possible similar experiences other fans here have had!


    Having been born in the early '80's and not becoming a Genesis fan until the mid '90's, I had never really experienced their albums as they were first released. My first experience with Genesis' back catalogue (beyond the radio over the years) was thru the '94 remasters on CD. During my high school years I slowly discovered album after album. Then the 2007 remixes were coming out, coinciding with the band's Turn It On Again Tour. It was a great time to be a fan! The main attraction for ME was the 5.1 surround sound mixes. For many years I was quite content with my boxsets and was able to find many positives in the sound quality of the remixes, despite the many comments that existed regarding the compression, clipped dynamic range, and of course the weaker sounding drums.


    In 2022, I had gotten into vinyl. I must admit, the last 2 1/2 years have been quite a journey of learning and experience in that area, as I gradually collected more and more music-some new some old. I had naturally gotten the 2018 half-speed mastered versions of the Genesis albums. And for a long time, I SWORE I couldn't imagine those albums sounding better! The half-speed masters offered a brightness, clarity and balance from high to low that I'd never heard in the Genesis albums before. I had no idea what I was missing, apparently!


    Over time however, my motivation for collecting shifted from sound quality, to also being about nostalgia. Suddenly it became important to me to be able to hear the music they way my parents did when they were young - the way the artists originally released it. So I started hearing the 2018 Genesis albums I had differently; perhaps due to having collected originals of lots of other music and hearing the warmness, richness and punch each of those albums had. I started to become curious if the original vinyl releases of the Genesis albums could sound that way too. Although I was happy with the remixes at the time, I still always did have nagging feelings about certain differences in the way the songs sounded; songs like Misunderstanding missing certain sounds, several songs in Invisible touch being mixed quite differently, etc. And part of this sense of nostalgia set in to cause me to miss the original mixes I remember from when I was a kid.


    So, once I discovered that I could get the original vinyl releases in great condition but for surprisingly low prices on Discogs, I decided to give the originals a try. I have several of them so far, and I am SHOCKED at the difference! Having never heard these albums the way they were originally intended - AND on the best possible format, it was amazing to me to see how much more warmth and richness the songs had. There is this...analogue presence that just doesn't exist in any other version of these albums. Lastly - and perhaps most importantly - the drums had so much more power and punch! Part of what's great about Genesis' music is Phil's drumming, and with these originals it shines thru like I've never heard before. I hardly knew what I was missing - it made me fall in love with Phil's drum sound all over again, really!


    Now, I still acknowledge that IMO the remixes do have benefits; mainly sounding brighter and cleaner, with a nice balance from high to low. And I still love them in 5.1 Surround. But I have now discovered, it all comes at the expense of the sense of richness and "presence" the mix has in the originals (at least on vinyl), and of course sadly also at the expense of those beautiful, powerful drums. There's a song here or there that IMO still sounds better in the half-speed version, but apart from a couple across the catalogue, IMO the original vinyl versions are just amazing, and make the remixes sound like a "mistakenly altered copy of a copy."



    I just thought I'd share with you my experience of re-discovery of Genesis' albums, and I'm glad to be able to hear them the way they were originally intended. Has anyone else had a similar experience like this? Listening to a certain version for years, and then discovering how different-improved or not improved-these albums can sound based on trying out a different version??? Have you changed your own preferred versions? Why?


    I'd love to hear YOUR story! :)

    I agree with pretty much everything you mentioned here, except for One for the Vine; hasn’t clicked for me yet, I keep trying. But it sounds like you and I are pretty much the same age, I was born in ‘79 and some of my earliest radio memories are driving to the Jersey Shore while Invisible Touch played on the car radio. I swear radio stations in Philly and South Jersey must have played Invisible Touch (the song) every hour on the hour in 1986-87, that and Sledgehammer by PG. It is funny how songs can elicit so much nostalgia in our minds, from times or places we’ve been. Another song that is connected to the beach is Make Me Lose Control by Eric Carmen which probably came out around the same time as IT. Nice memories.



    Re: the highlighted, yeah same here. I grew up in the Chicago suburbs, and out there Genesis was big. It seems during the mid-late 80's (I was born in '81) I heard either Genesis or Phil Collins just about every sixth or seventh song on the radio-literally every time I was in the car I heard at least one-between others like The Police, Elton John, Billy Joel and a few others mixed in that were always on. I believe in the mid 80's there indeed was a time where Phil had like five or six singles that were all high in the charts at the same time, so it makes sense. That's All, One More Night, Sussudio, Invisible Touch, In Too Deep, I don't Care Anymore, In the Air Tonight and Two Hearts were all constantly on the radio at the same time during about '84 - '88 (when I was starting to become aware of music and the musicians that made them).


    I was actually shocked to learn that all those songs were done by the same person!

    It's hard for me to pick favorites, as WCD is my favorite album-partly cos it sounds so different from anything else they've ever done.


    1. No Son of Mine

    2. Never A Time

    3. Hold on My Heart


    Way of the World and Fading Lights would probably be a 4 and 5 I guess.


    I DO like them all, to some extent. I should mention that WCD also has one of my favorite B-Sides: On the Shoreline. IMO that should've been on there instead of songs like Tell Me Why or Since I Lost You. And don't hate me, but I also feel like On the Shoreline would've been a more interesting album opener than No Son of Mine!

    I love that you included IT in your top three albums. It was a tightly produced, amazing album when it was released and then probably sounded date in the mid to late 90s, but now in 2024 sounds fantastic. I do not think there is a mediocre song on it, and I’ll strongly defend In Too Deep against any haters.


    I agree, a lot of the 80's stuff that came off as dated in the 90's and early 2000''s seem to be getting a renewed respect-all part of that whole 80's nostalgia thing that has been going on for a while now. I myself have gotten into Retro Synthwave; that sub-genre has gained kind of a cult following. I personally describe it as arcade music, like something you'd hear on Street Fighter or some racing game. But I love to drive to it. Invisible Touch sounds a lot like that kind of stuff in a way, so I get it.


    On a deeper level though, I've always felt IT gets kind of the short end of the stick when it comes to discussing Genesis' albums. Fans think of the title track and In Too Deep, and they write it off as too pop-oriented...but IMO this album has so much more to offer. Although it's more poppy and synthy than the others and definitely of its time, it still contains lots of elements of Genesis' more experimental and even prog influenced sound. The instrumental section of Tonight Tonight Tonight, Domino and the very unusual sound of The Brazilian show this. Domino especially has Genesis' own flavor of prog sound all over it; the longer instrumental passages, the imaginative lyrics, contrasting loud and quiet sections and of course multiple parts all go to make that 10 minute song one that stands right up there with the likes of Me and Sarah Jane, One for the Vine and Robbery Assault and Battery.


    Although WCD was the first Genesis album I got, the singles from Invisible Touch are really the ones that first exposed me to Genesis. I was around Kindergarten age when the album came out, and I have distinct memories of the songs being on the radio all the time then. I guess even if IT isn't my favorite Genesis album, it's kind of a special one for me from a nostalgic POV-and it's one of the few where I at least like (if not love) every single song on the album).

    Now that we've had it for almost half a year (if you can believe it), I don't listen to i/o nearly as often as I did then. However I just did finally get two half hour blocks next to eachother to put the vinyl on and sit thru the whole album, for the first time in months!


    A few things became clear to me, now that the novelty and "new album smell" has worn off:


    -The Court continues to grow on me, and is almost in my top five (instead of almost at the bottom)

    -Love Can Heal is still just as hauntingly beautiful to me as it was nine months ago

    -Panopticom also has grown on me and basically ranks #4

    -My top three have changed, for the first time since the album was released:


    1. Road To Joy

    2. Love Can Heal

    3. Four Kinds of Horses (with Panopticom trailing VERY close behind)


    Who knows what it'll be later this year? I love that our opinions on these songs continue to evolve. That's a sign of truly good music!



    Now I just want to know if/when we'll be able to hear the several other songs he has and has mentioned? In particular I'd love to hear What Lies Ahead...

    I heard Paperlate was left off because they already had No Reply At All on there, and two songs with similar horns would have been overkill. I love No Reply At All, but honestly I’ve always liked Paperlate a little better. I wouldn’t have minded if both had made the album.


    It's interesting you mention that - cos I've always felt it seemed odd to just have one song on the album that had horns-IMO having Paperlate on there would make the horns feel a bit less out of place. And it may have made the album even more successful than it was, by having another popular single on there!


    To each their own I suppose - I guess that's what makes Abacab such a great experimental album; so much to talk about HAHAHA!!!!

    While I agree with your strong choices, I respectfully disagree that Dancing With The Moonlit Knight is a weak opener. It’s an incredible opening to Selling England.


    Yeah you know, when I was looking back on this thread, I noticed that. That must've been a mistake of mine-perhaps when I put that I had been thinking of "honorable mentions" rather than weak openings.


    As a matter of fact, I'd actually put Moonlit Knight in my top five:


    1. Dance on a Volcano

    2. Behind the Lines

    3. Down and Out

    4. 11th Earl of Mar

    5. Dancing with the Moonlit Knight



    Mama and Lamb... come close for me too. And You're right; CAS is also a strong opener.

    The packaging and everything is beautiful. But without any notable extras to speak of (unreleased tracks, live material, etc.) to speak of, I can't justify myself spending that much $ to have the same songs in multiple different formats. I might get the CD someday, cos I'd love to hear the surround mixes...but other than that-this one's not for me I guess.

    What I don't understand is how Tony went many years picking really great keyboard sounds and then lost his touch in later years. For the first 15 years, he wasn't just sticking with old equipment. He would get new keyboards and then use some really nice new sounds. While the sounds he used on the IT album were very much of the moment, I think they were good choices and fit those songs (e.g., on The Brazilian).


    On WCD I liked some sounds, e.g., the "elephant" and the backing chords in No Son of Mine, all of Fading Lights. And then he picked very underwhelming ones, like the whole instrumental for Living Forever.


    His picks for sounds on the 2007 tour were also questionable.


    RE: the first paragraph, I personally felt that his keyboard sounds in the 70's material was actually somewhat limited. Back then they were very defined: Varied mellotron sounds early on-mostly in the PG era but into W&W...the rock organs - those followed him from the beginning, straight thru Duke. Then there was the choir sounding chords for a few albums. As for the lead synthesizer sounds, those were also more or less the same, just programmed differently-with a flatter or brighter sound, different amounts of slide effect, etc. They were all used to great effect of course, but those were basically all of the sounds he used in the 70's for the most part.


    Then in the 80's, the synth sounds became VERY much-as you mentioned-of the time, appropriate for the songs and again used to great effect, but I recognized many of those exact sounds on songs by other 80's artists. More to fill the space and accompany, than to create a separate part or solo.


    Then we get to WCD. Different synth tech had been released, lots of different sounds and effects that hadn't been heard before. Tony utilized these new sounds very effectively, and IMO that's why WCD sounds like nothing they (or many others at the time) had done before. Some sound choices were hits, and some were misses, but IMO that is less about simply the choices Tony made with his synthesizers, and more on the choices of the band as a whole.


    Your comment re: the Turn It On Again Tour synthesizer choices however, I do FULLY agree with! I always thought it was kind of lazy to use the EXACT same lead synthesizer sound for literally all of his songs (i.e. In the Cage, Firth of Fifth, Follow you Follow me, Ripples, Los Endos), and some of the background chords or organ sounds in the older material lacked a certain power that had been displayed with his choices on previous tours (i.e. In the Cage, Afterglow, Firth of Fifth).

    Hold on My Heart is IMO some of TB's most atmospheric and effectively mood-setting keyboard playing of almost any Genesis song! Simple from a technical standpoint, but beautifully full chords and background sounds create a keyboard part that is more like...a feeling, than a musical performance!

    Tony's keyboard sound choices and overall chords and synth work are one of the main reasons WCD is my favorite Genesis album. As mentioned, it all just sounds so much different than anything else they had done-and I like that!


    I do acknowledge that Tony's talent specifically was more on display during the 70's era, but if we're not just speaking from a technique standpoint, I felt the different sounds he used across the whole WCD album were unique in comparison to many other Genesis albums. Much of the synthesizer sounds used throughout the 70's were very similar (due in part to the more limited choices of course), and I agree in the 80's-particularly with Abacab, Genesis and Invisible Touch-the synths have a very distinct (and admittedly common for its time) pop-synth sound. When it comes to WCD however, the sounds Tony used were completely different-and IMO just gave all of the songs so much of their own character!

    Currently I'm listening to a lot of Abacab. I have long since had the half-speed vinyl version, but I've recently considered getting the original versions on vinyl, to experience what those are like. So I started with the original of Abacab, and I'm listening back and forth to compare the differences.


    I'm not sure which version I like better yet-but I'm leaning towards the original, which feels richer and punchier, and has more of an "analogue presence" compared to the 2018 version-which in contrast seems very much more bright and clear in the treble range, but at the expense of everything else the original offers. I'll have to try out some other originals to be sure which I prefer I guess...