Posts by pcontos

Christian, the news section mentioned that they found the additional multitrack which is used for the song, it and the encores. This seems to contradict what Tony Banks said in that recent interview. He said that they found it and the encores and they are from a soundboard recording and they sound “alright”. Do you or anyone know what source exactly is being used for these songs?

The Wolfgang’s vault version sounds like it originated from a multi-track recording but was mixed to stereo. It doesn’t sound like a raw soundboard tape. I’m assuming that the version that was used for radio broadcasts is the version that will be in the box. Is there any other indication that there is some other version that is different than the already available source?

Quote from TheWestSide

Never heard of this. Where was this published back in the day?

Yes, I remember it was published online in 1995 on an old Genesis fan website called, The Path is Clear, and was one of the only long interviews that he gave about Strictly Inc. I was reading every word and waiting to hear if he was going to mention a future Genesis project, but he never did. He obviously knew that Phil had left but we as fans didn't. Her name was Deb Wentorf, I believe, and she used to contribute to the old Paperlate email group.

Does anyone have a link or pdf of Deb Wentorf’s interview with Tony Banks from 1995?

I just listened again to the Sending Signals Boxset interview with Tony Banks. He says he that thinks that they're using 2007 Nick Davis mixes. He must have not known or was mistaken. He does however offer more information about It and the encores. He says that they found the missing encores and that they are "board mixes" which "sound ok". It seems to me that it must be either the bootleg version radio broadcast mix or some other mix that was pre-broadcast. He doesn't say anything about finding the missing multi-track and that these would be properly mixed like the rest of the concert on Archive 1998 set.

Christian indicates in his news article that they found a different multi-track which includes the encores. I hope this is the case and that they are able to mix those tracks to have better sound quality than the versions that we have had on bootleg or Wolfgang's vault for years. I do hope that they may have remixed the Archive version though, at least to the extent of removing some of the repaired vocals, like they did in 2009 for the Genesis Live album extra tracks. I imagine we won't know or get any more information on this until it is released. I'm thinking that they may just be tacking on the Wolfgang vault mix of the encores to the existing Archive 1998 set and remastering that.

Quote from pcontos

Can anyone share what types of sound quality or sources for the 2006/2007 rehearsals? Has anyone heard any 2020 or 2021 rehearsals? Are there any good leads on who may be able to share these and what objections there may be?

I’m still curious about this if anyone has any additional information regarding the quality of the recordings/source and any leads?

Can anyone share what types of sound quality or sources for the 2006/2007 rehearsals? Has anyone heard any 2020 or 2021 rehearsals? Are there any good leads on who may be able to share these and what objections there may be?

I'm curious to know how much involvement the band has in these archival releases now that they don't own the catalog anymore. It seemed as if Tony was still involved in the selection of tracks for the BBC Broadcasts set. Are they merely consulted, or do they have final say?

Quote from usapcfan

Abacab from 2007 was an edited version - around 5 mins if I remember correctly.

Jesus was the same version as the 1992 tour basically with Phil doing his spoken bit at the end

Thats All was the standard version of the live track, same as TWWW etc.

In Too Deep was very different as it had Daryl all over it with what sounded like a nylon string guitar.

The rehearsal I heard of these songs was from NYC in October 2006. As stated previously I don't have it

In terms of 2021, Abacab was not in the dress rehearsal shows in 2021. The last songs to be dropped were Jesus and Hold On.... Phil could not keep up with the speed of Jesus and Hold On... was just another slow song that the acoustic set covered the part of.... In Too Deep was part of the acoustic set.

In the documentary there is mention of them recording a full show in London at LH2 where they rehearsed. This was a multi camera shoot and the setlist that was recorded was exactly the same as the Last Domino CD - including Jesus, Hold On My Heart, In Too Deep and Abacab.

Maybe one day this will be released...

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Wow, thanks usapcfan! That’s pretty detailed and answered my questions. I wondered if they edited Abacab in 2020 since the single version was on the Last Domino Cd. I doubt they will ever release that whole video but who knows.

I didn’t think they would’ve edited it in 2006 since Phil was still trying to play drums like he used to. I am curious if there was any part of the instrumental played? Also, was the 2006 recordings professional like a soundboard or iem recording?

I really wish someone would release the 2006 2007 rehearsals since usapcfan says that these exist, and those missing songs are on there. I would think it would be less likely that the 2020/2021 rehearsals would leak this soon. I don't know if anyone has ever heard any recordings from those rehearsals.

Quote from usapcfan

Abacab, Thats All, In Too Deep and Jesus are all available as part of multiple recordings from NYC and Cossonay in 2006 and 2007. These recordings are part of the "Private Trading Pool" I dont have them but have heard them. They are very good. I hope they circulate sometime soon!!!

I am a big fan of Abacab, the song and have wanted them to play it the last two tours since it was left off since the Invisible Touch Tour. I was so disappointed when I heard that they rehearsed it in 2007 (and in 2021) and dropped it. I wondered if they actually played it in rehearsals in 2007 since Phil admitted that he started to sing it and couldn't get behind the lyrics. Did they play a full version with instrumental? Are these private recordings professional (soundboard, monitors, etc.)? What can you share about what you heard?

Also, I thought they came much closer to playing it in 2021 since it was on the setlist and they said it was dropped right at the end. I do seem to think that they only played the first half and not the instrumental for some reason since they put the single version on the Last Domino CD. I have no confirmation of this though. Does anyone know anything or have heard a 2021 version?

Quote from jpp

(Just to complete the excellent review of Tom Morgenstern)

The HDVS capture may have been transferred to film at the time :

Peter Wilson (from High Definition & Digital Cinema), who worked on the HDVS production of this concert, said that the tapes have been transferred to 35mm film using Sony EBR process (and then blown up to 70mm film). source: hddc.co.uk

ps : Electron Beam Recording (EBR) was a process developed by Sony PCL to transfer HDVS video tapes (1125i @ 60hz) to 35mm film @ 30fps. (There also was a mode to transfer into 2250p @ 24fps to simplify the direct distribution to cinemas!)

Do you think that there is film of three of the shows in Genesis or Jim Yukich's possession? Could these theoretically be re-edited and prepared for HD blu-ray? I wonder how well a 4k scan of the 35mm film/HDVS tapes would look. I imagine it could be stunning. I also wonder if in fact there aren't some camera shots of the In The Cage Medley from one or more of the nights since there were 8 camera men I believe. I'm sure Genesis still recorded the audio via digital multi-track of the four shows and wouldn't stop the audio recording to change tape during the medley. It would be really cool boxset if the band was into releasing material like so many of their contemporaries.

I can appreciate pawciaob1's enthusiasm for wanting to find rare performances either via rehearsals, demos or concerts. We have all been excited and frustrated at one time or another following and supporting this band. I'm sure many veteran fans here have tried to contact the band or associates relative to what they may have and what the fans would like to be released. I also realize how unrealistic it is that the band would release any archival material that obscure. They haven't released anything since the remixed boxsets which was 2007-2009. Then Sum of the parts documentary and R-Kive in 2014 and the last Domino compilation in 2021. I was very disappointed and somewhat surprised that they didn't continue releasing something each year after 2009. The band surprisingly contracted with themusic.com and released every show of the 2007 tour. This certainly wasn't a big money maker, but it showed that the band may not be as precious about letting out performances that may not be up to standard. I'm not sure if there was a complete lack of interest on the band's part or something to do with their record contracts. The first talk of archival releases such as soundboard tapes was way back in 2001. That actually seemed like the band had some interest and were quite willing to get those tapes restored and released in some form. At the time, it was still common to release cd's and downloads were still a very new medium. It may have been too expensive for the very small amount of consumers for them to even bother.

Now in 2023, there are so many different mediums, and you find that many bands are releasing concerts via downloads and streaming services. Nugs Net is a very popular service which many bands have contracted to provide a platform for this type of product. There are many jam bands who by nature release all of their shows but there are also huge groups like Metallica who have used this service. They may actually be a good one to compare with Genesis in that they are/were very successful and by no means need the money. Youtube and other streaming platforms could be made available as a subscription service. I feel that unless a platform was created with the very objective of releasing archival content, such obscure things such as rehearsals or demos would have no chance of being released. Ok, maybe if the band does expanded boxsets of each album you may get a few tracks that they feel are of a certain quality or are very unique but they will not release 10 disc sets.

The band also hasn't really had an active website for many years which does show to some extent that they don't really want to interact with the fan communities in the same way they did back in old official website. Maybe that will change in the coming months or years, but who knows. It was really nice when the old site had access to people like Nick Davis and others associated with the management as it seemed that some suggestions were able to be made even if they weren't taken in serious consideration.

Christian,

That is so cool that Tom prepared this and a coincidence as I started yesterday comparing the bootlegs to the dvd to see which performances were from which night as well. This was really hard because the band and Phil's consistency in performance is really unbelievable. His vocal lines over those four shows were each very close. I made it through Mama which I identified as July 3 and Abacab which also came from the 3rd. I got stuck on the Abacab from the Invisible Touch Live single when I realized that the first set or vocal lines or half of the song didn't come from any of the four shows but the second half sounds like it came from July 2nd. I was going to continue today, and your post already did all of that for me:). Thanks so much to you and Tom. I was going to do the same for the Earl's court shows on the 1992 dvd but that may take longer since there were six nights. Maybe that is something Tom will prepare in the future.

Is Tom Morgenstern the same as TM Productions?

Quote from Christian

At the time Phil said on more than one occasion that Genesis is Tony and Mike much more than him.

Now that history is written it's always easy to come up with ideas and assumptions, but I believe they never really thought this through when Phil left and didn't give it enough time to evolve.

they should have done some shows first, maybe in an unusual setting (semi-unplugged?), then record the album with Ray and maybe a second one.

It was clear from the beginning that CAS wouldn't be as successful as WCD, but they stopped at least one album too early, in my opionion.

The Ruins show was a special thing, since Queen, Genesis and Floyd did this together. Sadly, it was probably the final moment that caused Phil's decision to leave the band.

I know that Phil has said that Genesis was more Tony and Mike than him but I think that has to do with the fact that Phil’s musical tastes are the furthest from Genesis music. His passion for the band may have lessened over the years after his own music was becoming more successful even though he loved the guys and continued to work with them. It was a crazy workload for him too. I do think that he was as important to the sound and music as Tony and Mike with his drumming, singing, writing, arranging, etc. I really feel that taking it down to two members from an original five really diluted the band. Phil said this in so many words in some interview, like he knew that taking it down to two may have been one too many. He was supportive publicly and was concerned about the roadies, etc but I have gotten the sense that he didn’t think it was the best idea for them to continue. Mike and Tony were very quick to continue without him which was pretty interesting. I think they obviously wanted to work together but I also think they had a little bit of a feeling that the public undermined their contribution due to Phil’s solo success and wanted to change that narrative a bit.

After Phil left and they selected Ray as the singer, they did wait an awful long time to release an album. The album sounds like a Mike and Tony album with session players on it. To me, it doesn’t sound like a band. When they were three piece Phil and Mike each had two roles which was obviously different than when they played live with Daryl and Chester but it still sounded like a band. Maybe they should have gone out and played live with Ray and whoever they chose to play guitar and drums before they released the album just to get some chemistry. I don’t know what the right way forward would’ve been to be honest. It just seemed like by 1998, 1999 and 2000 after they disbanded the Ray lineup that Phil was back in the picture like the whole thing was a mistake.

Quote from Backdrifter

Dearie me. That must have felt sharper and funnier in your head than it looks on screen. (Oh, and it's Cowdray)

Haha, it did feel funnier in my head. That show just marks such a disappointment as we all know Phil lost his desire to be in Genesis at that time. In hindsight it really marks the beginning of the end of Genesis as a truly active band. Mike and Tony really had an uphill battle thinking that they could replace him. I supported them and admire their commitment and and courage but the magic really was the three of them. Would it really been the same band if either Tony or Mike left? I think about that sometimes as it is never really discussed.

That should be called the Cowdrey when Phil Ruins Genesis show!

I was wondering if anyone on this forum including Christian’s Main Site has compiled a list of what we know that the band has or had in it’s possession with regards to multitrack and film/ video recordings. I know someone may have posted this list at some point and I have a good idea but I thought it maybe nice to see again. With the release of the BBC box set I have been reviewing all the bootleg versions again on Simon’s Movement site, trying see if I already own the best versions of these shows or if more recent upgrades have come available. In addition, I’m curious about the video for Knebworth and Wembley as well as the other official live videos. There have been some really interesting restorations and upgrades from The Genesis Archive, Genesis Museum and BillFilm and I’m interested in how these have been restored. In the case of the Genesis Archive and Genesis Museum , it’s just amazing what content they have found and released. I don’t know if the band will ever warm to the idea of releasing blu ray/cd packages in the future but hopefully someone from the fan community who has access to the band could help start a dialogue again like was done in the early 2000’s.

Quote from Backdrifter

Not that I recall but maybe TB has said in an interview at some point that he dislikes them? If so perhaps pcontos is picking up on that. I'm fairly sure one of them, in my head it's Rutherford (possibly in his book), was a bit dismissive about the full TTT and said something along the lines of it not being one of their best instrumental moments. I disagree and feel it's a shame neither it or the 87 Abacab made it, two really key moments of the show for me.

I just feel that since 1987, they went off Abacab and the full version of Tonight, Tonight, Tonight and they love Home By the Sea and Domino. I don’t know who doesn’t like what but they have omitted these from the last three tours with Phil. Abacab was rehearsed the last two tours and dropped. Mike said in an interview that was just released on the 1992 Houston rehearsals that they put Abacab to rest for the 1992 tour. That was understandable at the time but I was very surprised it didn’t make a return in 2007 and 2021 since it is one of their most popular rock tracks. Mike has said that he didn’t think TTT was one of their best instrumentals but I think them dropping it in 1992 going forward had more to do with how difficult it was for Phil to sing on the 1987 tour. They had to drop it from several shows in 1987 and had to drop the key so much in 1992 that Tony’s marimba sound or whatever it was called had to be completely changed since it didn’t sound right in the lower key. I think Tony liked the full version since he complimented it when being interviewed at the farm by Nick Davis in 2003 when the Wembley DVD was first released. I wonder if they excluded these two songs from this set since they were released as b-sides on Tell Me Why and Invisible Touch live cd singles.

Christian,

What an excellent description of the box set. I did notice one omission when referencing the Lyceum shows. Duke’s Travels/Duke’s End were also released on Archive 2 and were mixed from Multi-track from the May 7th performance.

Boy Tony must have something against Abacab and the full version of Tonight, Tonight, Tonight. They were probably the best songs on that show.