Posts by pcontos

Quote from jpp

(Just to complete the excellent review of Tom Morgenstern)

The HDVS capture may have been transferred to film at the time :

Peter Wilson (from High Definition & Digital Cinema), who worked on the HDVS production of this concert, said that the tapes have been transferred to 35mm film using Sony EBR process (and then blown up to 70mm film). source: hddc.co.uk

ps : Electron Beam Recording (EBR) was a process developed by Sony PCL to transfer HDVS video tapes (1125i @ 60hz) to 35mm film @ 30fps. (There also was a mode to transfer into 2250p @ 24fps to simplify the direct distribution to cinemas!)

Do you think that there is film of three of the shows in Genesis or Jim Yukich's possession? Could these theoretically be re-edited and prepared for HD blu-ray? I wonder how well a 4k scan of the 35mm film/HDVS tapes would look. I imagine it could be stunning. I also wonder if in fact there aren't some camera shots of the In The Cage Medley from one or more of the nights since there were 8 camera men I believe. I'm sure Genesis still recorded the audio via digital multi-track of the four shows and wouldn't stop the audio recording to change tape during the medley. It would be really cool boxset if the band was into releasing material like so many of their contemporaries.

I can appreciate pawciaob1's enthusiasm for wanting to find rare performances either via rehearsals, demos or concerts. We have all been excited and frustrated at one time or another following and supporting this band. I'm sure many veteran fans here have tried to contact the band or associates relative to what they may have and what the fans would like to be released. I also realize how unrealistic it is that the band would release any archival material that obscure. They haven't released anything since the remixed boxsets which was 2007-2009. Then Sum of the parts documentary and R-Kive in 2014 and the last Domino compilation in 2021. I was very disappointed and somewhat surprised that they didn't continue releasing something each year after 2009. The band surprisingly contracted with themusic.com and released every show of the 2007 tour. This certainly wasn't a big money maker, but it showed that the band may not be as precious about letting out performances that may not be up to standard. I'm not sure if there was a complete lack of interest on the band's part or something to do with their record contracts. The first talk of archival releases such as soundboard tapes was way back in 2001. That actually seemed like the band had some interest and were quite willing to get those tapes restored and released in some form. At the time, it was still common to release cd's and downloads were still a very new medium. It may have been too expensive for the very small amount of consumers for them to even bother.

Now in 2023, there are so many different mediums, and you find that many bands are releasing concerts via downloads and streaming services. Nugs Net is a very popular service which many bands have contracted to provide a platform for this type of product. There are many jam bands who by nature release all of their shows but there are also huge groups like Metallica who have used this service. They may actually be a good one to compare with Genesis in that they are/were very successful and by no means need the money. Youtube and other streaming platforms could be made available as a subscription service. I feel that unless a platform was created with the very objective of releasing archival content, such obscure things such as rehearsals or demos would have no chance of being released. Ok, maybe if the band does expanded boxsets of each album you may get a few tracks that they feel are of a certain quality or are very unique but they will not release 10 disc sets.

The band also hasn't really had an active website for many years which does show to some extent that they don't really want to interact with the fan communities in the same way they did back in old official website. Maybe that will change in the coming months or years, but who knows. It was really nice when the old site had access to people like Nick Davis and others associated with the management as it seemed that some suggestions were able to be made even if they weren't taken in serious consideration.

Christian,

That is so cool that Tom prepared this and a coincidence as I started yesterday comparing the bootlegs to the dvd to see which performances were from which night as well. This was really hard because the band and Phil's consistency in performance is really unbelievable. His vocal lines over those four shows were each very close. I made it through Mama which I identified as July 3 and Abacab which also came from the 3rd. I got stuck on the Abacab from the Invisible Touch Live single when I realized that the first set or vocal lines or half of the song didn't come from any of the four shows but the second half sounds like it came from July 2nd. I was going to continue today, and your post already did all of that for me:). Thanks so much to you and Tom. I was going to do the same for the Earl's court shows on the 1992 dvd but that may take longer since there were six nights. Maybe that is something Tom will prepare in the future.

Is Tom Morgenstern the same as TM Productions?

Quote from Christian

At the time Phil said on more than one occasion that Genesis is Tony and Mike much more than him.

Now that history is written it's always easy to come up with ideas and assumptions, but I believe they never really thought this through when Phil left and didn't give it enough time to evolve.

they should have done some shows first, maybe in an unusual setting (semi-unplugged?), then record the album with Ray and maybe a second one.

It was clear from the beginning that CAS wouldn't be as successful as WCD, but they stopped at least one album too early, in my opionion.

The Ruins show was a special thing, since Queen, Genesis and Floyd did this together. Sadly, it was probably the final moment that caused Phil's decision to leave the band.

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I know that Phil has said that Genesis was more Tony and Mike than him but I think that has to do with the fact that Phil’s musical tastes are the furthest from Genesis music. His passion for the band may have lessened over the years after his own music was becoming more successful even though he loved the guys and continued to work with them. It was a crazy workload for him too. I do think that he was as important to the sound and music as Tony and Mike with his drumming, singing, writing, arranging, etc. I really feel that taking it down to two members from an original five really diluted the band. Phil said this in so many words in some interview, like he knew that taking it down to two may have been one too many. He was supportive publicly and was concerned about the roadies, etc but I have gotten the sense that he didn’t think it was the best idea for them to continue. Mike and Tony were very quick to continue without him which was pretty interesting. I think they obviously wanted to work together but I also think they had a little bit of a feeling that the public undermined their contribution due to Phil’s solo success and wanted to change that narrative a bit.

After Phil left and they selected Ray as the singer, they did wait an awful long time to release an album. The album sounds like a Mike and Tony album with session players on it. To me, it doesn’t sound like a band. When they were three piece Phil and Mike each had two roles which was obviously different than when they played live with Daryl and Chester but it still sounded like a band. Maybe they should have gone out and played live with Ray and whoever they chose to play guitar and drums before they released the album just to get some chemistry. I don’t know what the right way forward would’ve been to be honest. It just seemed like by 1998, 1999 and 2000 after they disbanded the Ray lineup that Phil was back in the picture like the whole thing was a mistake.

Quote from Backdrifter

Dearie me. That must have felt sharper and funnier in your head than it looks on screen. (Oh, and it's Cowdray)

Haha, it did feel funnier in my head. That show just marks such a disappointment as we all know Phil lost his desire to be in Genesis at that time. In hindsight it really marks the beginning of the end of Genesis as a truly active band. Mike and Tony really had an uphill battle thinking that they could replace him. I supported them and admire their commitment and and courage but the magic really was the three of them. Would it really been the same band if either Tony or Mike left? I think about that sometimes as it is never really discussed.

That should be called the Cowdrey when Phil Ruins Genesis show!

I was wondering if anyone on this forum including Christian’s Main Site has compiled a list of what we know that the band has or had in it’s possession with regards to multitrack and film/ video recordings. I know someone may have posted this list at some point and I have a good idea but I thought it maybe nice to see again. With the release of the BBC box set I have been reviewing all the bootleg versions again on Simon’s Movement site, trying see if I already own the best versions of these shows or if more recent upgrades have come available. In addition, I’m curious about the video for Knebworth and Wembley as well as the other official live videos. There have been some really interesting restorations and upgrades from The Genesis Archive, Genesis Museum and BillFilm and I’m interested in how these have been restored. In the case of the Genesis Archive and Genesis Museum , it’s just amazing what content they have found and released. I don’t know if the band will ever warm to the idea of releasing blu ray/cd packages in the future but hopefully someone from the fan community who has access to the band could help start a dialogue again like was done in the early 2000’s.

Quote from Backdrifter

Not that I recall but maybe TB has said in an interview at some point that he dislikes them? If so perhaps pcontos is picking up on that. I'm fairly sure one of them, in my head it's Rutherford (possibly in his book), was a bit dismissive about the full TTT and said something along the lines of it not being one of their best instrumental moments. I disagree and feel it's a shame neither it or the 87 Abacab made it, two really key moments of the show for me.

I just feel that since 1987, they went off Abacab and the full version of Tonight, Tonight, Tonight and they love Home By the Sea and Domino. I don’t know who doesn’t like what but they have omitted these from the last three tours with Phil. Abacab was rehearsed the last two tours and dropped. Mike said in an interview that was just released on the 1992 Houston rehearsals that they put Abacab to rest for the 1992 tour. That was understandable at the time but I was very surprised it didn’t make a return in 2007 and 2021 since it is one of their most popular rock tracks. Mike has said that he didn’t think TTT was one of their best instrumentals but I think them dropping it in 1992 going forward had more to do with how difficult it was for Phil to sing on the 1987 tour. They had to drop it from several shows in 1987 and had to drop the key so much in 1992 that Tony’s marimba sound or whatever it was called had to be completely changed since it didn’t sound right in the lower key. I think Tony liked the full version since he complimented it when being interviewed at the farm by Nick Davis in 2003 when the Wembley DVD was first released. I wonder if they excluded these two songs from this set since they were released as b-sides on Tell Me Why and Invisible Touch live cd singles.

Christian,

What an excellent description of the box set. I did notice one omission when referencing the Lyceum shows. Duke’s Travels/Duke’s End were also released on Archive 2 and were mixed from Multi-track from the May 7th performance.

Boy Tony must have something against Abacab and the full version of Tonight, Tonight, Tonight. They were probably the best songs on that show.

I would be interested in the Chillingfold rehearsal’s from 1992 both audio and video. There are hidden recordings out there of the audio and the band may have footage of video since it was on opening night special.

Thanks for the upload of this video. I remember it well. It was so exciting at the time to see that the band were really serious about getting these tapes ready for some type of release. It was also cool that they published a list of what they were able to find which we have been able to reference and salivate over for 20 years. It is so unfortunate that they didn’t continue with this project. I imagine the number of cd/download sales wouldn’t have been profitable enough but it’s a shame that they really have done both at all. Now it’s unclear if they sold the rights to these and other archive material. Maybe in the over the course of the next several years this could be approached in a different way. Physical sales are probably not the solution but many bands use platforms like nug nets offer live shows for both download and subscription streaming services. Many bands do it and maybe the numbers can be profitable?

Does anyone know where to find pictures of all of the board tapes? I seem to remember someone posting them having visited the farm and showed the case that had the open drawers with all of the labelled tapes.

Does anyone have a picture of the live at the BBC disc with track list from the late 1990’s that was proposed by Virgin but ultimately turned down by the band at the time?

Quote from HomeByTheSea

I remember the first time hearing the 92 old medley. When they started to play Dance on a Volcano, I just about $hit myself thinking they are going to play the entire song, and then they went directly into TLLDOB after a few verses and I thought, what the heck is this?! Man they sounded great playing DOAV in 92. I just wish they would have played the entire thing. It could have been the highlight of the show!

I remember hearing the first notes of the Old Medley at Three Rivers Stadium and I was so surprised. I had just gotten into Genesis big time in 1991 just as We Can't Dance came out. I was already familiar with a lot of their music growing up because my parents loved them. I was 16 and finally could go to a concert (my second, Yes Union was first). My parents had told me that they really weren't playing much older material anymore and that the only thing they really play is the In The Cage Medley so I wasn't expecting a new medley. I loved it at the time and ever since as the performances of each of the songs sounded so fresh. I was very disappointed that they only played half of DOV and half of the Lamb. The rest didn't really bother me because I felt that The Musical Box ending into Firth into IKWIL flowed really well. I actually think that DOV may be the best or near the best they ever played it as the tempo and Mike and Daryl's guitars sound so good.

I just read Mario's The Phil Collins Years book and I must say I really enjoyed it. Between that book and the new unfiltered John Edington 2014 Interviews, I've learned a lot about the band that I didn't know and I've been a pretty hard core fan for over 30 years. One thing that I came to better understand is the reason for their use of medleys in later tours. Now obviously, as they more albums and had hits there wasn't going to be time for much of the longer songs from the past. They weren't really into that type of music as much at that time, especially it seemed in 1992 so hence the one 20 minutes medley and the rest of the show from the last three albums (not counting the encore TIOA). More than that though, I think that their self-criticism of their compositions really had more to do with it. Reading Mario's book and other interviews, each of them would say that they liked certain bits in certain songs but not other bits. Tony actually said that as time past they would take each opportunity to lose the bits within a song that they didn't feel was as strong. In addition, Phil didn't like singing many of the lyrics to the older material as he couldn't connect with it anymore and felt self-conscious. That, I think is what made them choose to do medleys instead of one or two whole songs. I mean, they even did it to Tonight, Tonight, Tonight. They didn't think the second half was nearly as good so they dropped it. They have said in a few interviews that they didn't think the second half of DOV was as strong as well. There are many examples of this which has been frustrating as a fan. Most of us generally love 90% of their output but it seems that it is difficult for the three of them to agree about the which older material to play.

I am so happy to see them playing as it really is a bonus and a way to wallow in nostalgia. I did hope that they would have been a little more adventurous with the older material this time, but I'm not surprised the setlist is what it is.

Quote from MoonlitKnight

Wow. That’s a major bummer. So sorry to hear that.

As soon as Christian dropped that spoiler yesterday I had a strong feeling it would replace Duchess. Duchess wasn’t an American hit and they weren’t going to play another song from Duke. I guess Abacab really didn’t sound that convincing to them.

Quote from Simon1967

small world indeed ! Was hoping to get over to Pittsburgh for the Genesis show, but proved a bit difficult as travelling restrictions only recently removed. My buddy that i met in OC, has come over to Europe several times for some shows...U2 in Dublin, Genesis in Italy. Good times on the boardwalk in OC 👍

Simon,

The boardwalk is still pretty much the same and a lot of fun. I too was in Italy for Genesis I. 2007 and I thought my girlfriend at the time and I were the only people from Pittsburgh!

Are you the Simon that runs the Genesis Movement site?

Quote from Simon1967

Spent two seasons in Ocean City MD..as s UK student many moons ago. Had a great time and still good friends with guys from Pittsburgh from over 30 years ago!...nice part of the world snd some good crab and lobster dishes!

Simon, I’m from Pittsburgh and we have been vacationing there since I was young. There were always a lot of students from overseas working. Small world!

I was hoping so much that your reveal was Abacab. I do not understand why this song keeps getting bumped out. It is so strong live and it is one of the only tracks still played consistently on rock radio here. I’m hoping we get to hear at least there rehearsal version at some point.

Genesis Archive,

I was wondering if your organization has ever tried to approach Genesis Management with any offer to organize an official’s archive. You, along with some other groups have been able to locate, curate and release many rare and interesting photos, films as well as audio. It seems Genesis has never been interested in creating this kind of project. I think it has been done with some other bands where fan groups partner?

Just curious

Paul