Posts by Dr. John

Periodically we go through this discussion about Genesis "going pop/selling out". A lot of good points have been made above and I want to echo some of that and add a few points.

Genesis has always tried to write songs that would be popular. As mentioned, The Silent Sun is a pretty blatant attempt at a single in the style of its era. Happy the Man and IKWIL are examples from the early 70s. However their attempts at pop didn't really connect with a larger audience until probably Follow You, Follow Me. And then they just kept connecting more and more successfully. At the same time they also kept creating more challenging songs that were not going to be played on pop radio.

I think it is actually quite hard to write a pop song that really becomes a big hit. There are always people trying to write pop hits and most fail to be successful. Writing a simple song might sometimes be simple, but writing a simple song that lots of people like is not so simple. And it is a particular talent to do this repeatedly.

And I'll say again that writing music to make money does not have to compromise the quality of the music. Some of the greatest music of all time was written to order, on commission with specific expectations. Many of the songs that stand the test of time were written very deliberately to be hits. The quality of the music has more to do with the artist than whether or not there was an objective to make money.

I'm less concerned about setlist spoilers. I am more interested in how the songs will be performed this time around, anticipating some modifications and changes.

While there is definitely an adrenaline rush with being surprised as I recognize a song I was not expecting, there are also pleasures from anticipating a song I know will be performed and being able to fully pay attention to how they bring it across this time.

Welcome to the forum. I encourage you to scroll down to the Tony Banks thread, where you will find a lot more discussion about his solo albums.

How every AC/DC song is built:

Monster riff starting with Angus, then bolstered by Malcolm. Add steady backbeat and bass to complete the groove. Add a throat-shredding vocal about doing something uncouth, illegal, or sexual. Add a chorus that is suitable for drunken screaming in a bar or at a concert. Add a wicked guitar solo. Finish with more scream-along choruses and perhaps another guitar solo.

How every Rolling Stones song is built:

Start with a slightly sloppy guitar riff that borrows equally from Chuck Berry and country. Add a great backbeat that always sounds like it is about to slow down. Add a slightly slurred, lascivious vocal singing lyrics that, when decipherable, are some cynical take on personal relationships or social-political issues. Add off-key harmonies, except when done by fabulous back-up singers.

It was dropped after New Zealand and never got played on the Australian leg. There is a recording of that last performance and you can hear Phil's poor voice breaking a number of times in Apocalypse and ASAEIE. He clearly gets rattled in Apocalypse as he completely messes up the words also:

Quote from Liquid Len

That must have been incredible to see, Dr. John.

It was really cool. I was 18 and it was my first Genesis concert. I bought a cheap seat at the back end of CNE stadium and then "migrated" in the stands to a spot much closer by the time of this medley. There was an interesting reaction from the crowd when they started Apocalypse. There was a smaller roar of recognition and excited gestures from some. There was also puzzlement and some heading for the bathrooms/concession stands (which had already started during In the Cage). For me, I was filled with both energy and awe. By the time Phil hit the final "Jerusaleeeeeem!!" I felt elevated up by the music. I was probably still basking in the afterglow when they next went into Invisible Touch, which I frankly don't remember at all.

Two of my picks are fairly obvious: On the Air and DIY. Although I like the significantly different live versions of these songs, I also like the studio versions. On the Air has that strained, aggressive vocal and fuzzed up guitar. DIY is a bit more subdued, with the laid-back verses and more intimate production sound. I also picked Indigo, which I think is a lovely song that gets a bit neglected.

The musicianship on the IT tour was great and the above Abacab performance is a good example. Not that the musicianship was ever poor on a Genesis tour, but the energy and further elaborations they did on instrumental passages were excellent. I agree it was on the fast side, but that was fine by me. They also had great energy performing Domino.

I also agree that Phil's range was slipping a bit on the high notes compared to the Mama tour. He was always pushing himself hard through this period and I wonder if he had been a bit more careful with his voice, he might have gotten through this better.

I was lucky enough to see this tour on the earlier leg, when they hit Toronto. So I got the ITC-full ITQE-Apocalypse/ASAEIE medley. I was thrilled when I realized they were heading into the full ITQE and then had to pick my jaw off the floor when it then went into Apocalypse.

Quote from drw4d

I guess I was just wondering why. Is there a reason why he would choose to play it on a guitar, and then use effects to drop the tone, as opposed to just playing it on a bass? I'm neither a guitarist nor bassist, so while I'm sure there's a reason for it, I don't know what it is. It was just something that I was curious about when watching the video. And then while I don't know that there's a way to know for sure, but do we think he was just doing that for the live performance, but used a bass for the studio recording? Or do we think he did the same thing; played the bass line on a guitar, going through an effects setup?

My guess is this is how the arrangement developed in jamming and developing the song. Mike then continued to play this line, perhaps because he enjoyed it more. He might have added the other guitar part later and then Daryl took that on live.

Quote from nts1drums

Guitar fed thru a guitar synthesizer (Roland GR-500 or ARP Avatar)? Just a guess. Could very well be just Tony playing bass notes on pedals or keys.

I think this is the answer. If you watch the video, what mike is doing on guitar correlates with the synth-sounding bassline. This is notable at the beginning when it is just Tony's ascending synth lines and then the bassline kicks in and the camera briefly shows Mike playing single notes. There is also a very brief moment when there are some accented E notes in the bass line followed by a pause and Mike seems to be doing the same accents. Meanwhile when the camera shows Tony's hands, he is clearly just playing the CP70 piano sound and his left hand is not following the bassline; there is another point where he is clearly holding chords and yet the bassline is still moving around separately.

Quote from Backdrifter

By the way no-one has yet had any thoughts on the Willow Farm "missing" lyrics thing.

Maybe they viewed those extra words as more sound effects rather than part of the lyrics proper?

Quote from Mozo

My daughter, who is 25 has just decided to investigate Genesis. She knows I'm a Genesis nut, so she's been exposed to it for years.

She started on TOTT, which she loved, and then ATTWT, which she also liked a lot.

Most recently she listened to Selling England, which she absolutely loved, and FOF is her favourite track.

It makes me so proud....

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The definition of great parenting!

Quote from Backdrifter

I was indeed aware. For instance, Tue 11 March 1980, London Hammersmith Odeon, I was there.

Cool! Too bad this version did not end up on Flotsam and Jetsam.

A great album and tough to pick just 3. Biko is obvious. Family Snapshot has always been a favourite, both chilling and poignant. I went with No Self Control, but I could have easily picked several others.

Quote from Backdrifter

I meant to select Normal Life but mis-tapped. I knew it'd struggle so I hope it gets at least some love.

I don't know if you are aware, but Peter did play Lead a Normal Life live at least once, appropriately when he was in Normal, Indiana:

Dance On a Volcano would be a cool opener. I can't remember if it was one of the ones mentioned on previous posts about songs practiced or considered.

In response to the post a ways back about whining and digs at the band (since I was probably one of those posters being referred to), I think it is possible to both be a Genesis fan (I bought tickets for this tour) and also muse about how age-related limitations will potentially impact the setlist and performance about the songs. If I want to only experience Genesis at the peak of their live capabilities, I can obviously go back and re-watch or re-listen to many performances in their career. However I am still happy to see what they can deliver now and also expect it will be a bit different than performances of yore.

If you go back into this thread (and some other older ones), you will see that the 1994 Definitive Edition Remasters are generally well liked for the albums through to the 80s for the most part. Some people like the 2007 box set remixes, though not everyone. There are occasional discrepancies between the remasters and the remixes - some small parts got lost - which may matter to you.

I have kept both the remasters and remixes in my collection. I like the remasters overall and do listen to them. However the remixes really do open up some albums so that you can hear the parts more distinctly, even without the 5.1 mixes. The Lamb is an example where I can hear the parts more clearly - even Steve, who I find is often buried in the original mix. The additional advantages of the box sets include having all the extra tracks, the interviews, and the 5.1 mixes.

Quote from Fabrizio

Yes, ii was a bit of an overkill sometimes, Afterglow on 3SL springs to mind, even though I enjoy it and I'm in awe of his vocals, one is left wondering whether the wistful nature of the song wouldn't require a more ethereal approach, like on SO for example, only on SO his voice didn't have any particular character. On a positive note though, some new era songs, to me at least, were just about OK because Phil sang them and the way he did. He was able to infuse life and grit into songs that IMHO were really nothing special and therein lies the problem. Those songs were created by and for a singer who had almost unlimited vocal resources at his disposal, how do you deliver them in an acceptable way when that singer is no longer here? He got by in 2007, barely, as you said, I'm curious what they come up with this time, they will have to be really imaginative and inventive because if the answer is taking the songs two keys down it would be rather disappointing.

Agree that Afterglow lost some of that meditative, contemplative feel as he took a more strident approach to it (but the double drumming in the outro is so killer that I still like later versions).

And I also agree that some slighter songs sounded stronger because he had a strong delivery. That's All and Invisible Touch are examples for me. Sussudio is an example from his solo career.

The key changes alone change the feel of songs for me, so it means that I can be open to other changes that come along with it. If they do Mama, perhaps it will be brooding and haunting with a softer voice instead of the scary and tortured delivery of the original.

I enjoy Sledgehammer and think it is a well-crafted song. Tony Levin's bass part is particularly masterful. The lyric is humourous and Peter gives a great vocal performance. However it is fairly middle-of-the-pack for me in terms of his songs on this album. In Your Eyes is sublime, especially the full-length version with the intro and outro section. I love the moody atmosphere of Mercy Street. Don't Give Up has poignant lyrics, great vocal performances, and another great bass part by Tony Levin. This Is the Picture is quirky and great. Big Time is in the same humourous territory as Sledgehammer, but for me is more fun.

Don't get me wrong, I thought he was superb in the early 80s on songs that really benefitted from that power. Mama is one of his finest vocal performances. Feeding the Fire is another great performance. And he was terrific on live versions of Abacab, Dodo, and In the Cage among others. However, I did feel he overused that style of his singing on songs that were better served with a softer approach. I prefer the studio version of It's Gonna Get Better, because he switches the falsetto section "Cuz I know..." to full voice in the live setting, which causes that part to lose some of it's delicacy and tenderness.

Quote from Zaar

I am not a musician, but I like experts doing reviews like this, although this is pure maths probably - without the emotion that is always attached to the music. Will check this out later, thx for sharing!

I get the sense that he is also experiencing the emotion in the music. He also comments on the relationship between the message in the lyrics and what is happening musically.