Posts by The_Genesis_Archive

    5.1: DVD or Blu Ray, don't mind which, it's not going to make a huge difference to me, my system is good, but uses small JBL speakers, so it's not as high fidelity as my stereo, it's just nice to hear stuff in surround. SACD is dead, really, it never caught on, and it's on the back foot now!


    foxfeeder, sadly on the subject of SACD I think we are in agreement. A real shame as a format it had great potential.


    TGA

    Ok thanks.


    Hmmm. I wonder therefore, what would TB's view be of the Revolution In The Head style of Genesis book I was thinking about. Like the Beatles book, it would focus entirely on the songs and in a different, more forensic way than the song-by-song book mentioned before.

    Yes although Mark Lewisholm did a similar book on The Beatles, charting every day in a kind of archive/diary style for The Beatles. It gave us at The Genesis Archive the idea for how we approach our website design/strategy. We even took a copy of the book with us when we interviewed Steve Hackett for our sister website, a quick 5 minute discussion gave us the impression it was going to be a good idea. It has since opened up a number of opportunities for us.


    TGA

    The SACD were hybrid and contained the stereo mix to play on a standard CD player.


    The farmer is correct, much as most SACD releases are Hybrid's. Jeff Wayne's War Of The Worlds, Peter Gabriel's SACD catalogue (all in 2.0 except UP).


    I've only ever lived in small houses (still waiting for that lottery win), but the systems I have had mostly had small speakers. I have a large surround sound catalogue now, Anthony Phillips, Mike Oldfield, Yes, King Crimson, are just some of the more diverse works outside of Genesis that I own.


    If anything Vinyl has had a resurgence, but I'm not sure why... Genesis really have triple dipped on Vinyl releases, but aside from the warmth that some speak of, I cannot see the allure of the format.


    I do think any work by Genesis going forward would likely be on Blu Ray. Looking at the recent Pink Floyd releases gives us a clue as to how Deluxe versions of the Genesis catalogue may look. Nick Mason of Pink Floyd is managed by Tony Smith.


    I really wanted Phil's solo work to be reissued in Surround sound, the word I got back was "he wasn't interested in doing that". A real pity!


    TGA

    All of the SACD boxsets came with the following:


    SACD 5.1

    SACD 2.0 (Stereo)

    CD Redbook audio (normal CD sound at normal CD resolution.


    DVD A 5.1

    DVD A 2.1 (stereo).


    SACD's were sold in these boxsets in Europe and Japan, in America Atlantic didn't want to spend any money so they opted for DVD A and CD's in those boxsets.


    Most people savaged the compression applied to the CD Redbook audio, missing the point that the boxsets were commissioned for the Surround Sound mixes on both SACD and DVD A. SACD's store and release the sound at a higher sampling rate, hence why they are the preferred medium. For another moaning about SACD's being a niche format, most Sony Playstation 2's would playback SACD releases. There were a number of home cinema systems that could happily playback the SACD material, including one released by Sony as a complete kit, this was called the DAV S-550 I brought that cheap in 2003, it came with an amp and 5 speakers and a Sub woofer. Later on I upgraded to separates, I had a Denon DVD player that also played SACD's which cost me £140 etc.


    On that fateful day in June 2006, that we were down the Farm... we got to hear a few of the new mixes, Behind The Lines actually doesn't fade... it continues finishing up with just Phil on the drums.


    The cheapest format of choice for record companies would be Blu Ray, they can fit more onto those discs. So any surround sound materials would end up on a blu ray disc, rather than SACD etc.


    A record company always provides a budget for a project, but it would be Genesis management who would have to come up with a project in the first place and projected sales (forecast).


    A tour is often in the modern age a good way to motivate a record company to do a project, its galling when you see Pink Floyd or The Beatles doing fantastic projects these days. But Genesis are not classed the same with Record companies struggling to see the demand. These online streaming services like Deezer and Spotify do very little for the artists and record companies financially.


    So its not a case of the band / management not wanting to do it!


    Hope this helps,


    TGA

    I haven't! The fact you don't like me criticizing the mess that too many people with too little relevance had too little focus to do properly is your problem, not mine.

    Criticism is welcome when its merited and due, it is encouraged when it's constructive and other ideas are debated fairly and remain relevant.


    What is it that you are trying to say here?

    Most band documentaries are going to disappoint a lot of fans, particularly with a band who cover so many styles and eras, but this one went nuclear in that respect. Almost NO-ONE liked it, even within the band it seems.


    Most band documentaries have the chance to fall fowl of the hype or unfair expectations placed upon them, especially concerning bands with a large catalogue or longevity. Went Nuclear is to suggest legal action followed, to suggest that almost no one liked it is also a generalisation. To then be so bold to say that the band didn't like it is indeed fatuous and naive.


    TGA

    As to Sum of the Farts, Steve and Ant may not have had the commercial success the others had, (Except Tony. Shame, that!) but to exclude him completely from a documentary that was "claimed" to focus on the collective and solo works of it's members is just wrong. And unjustifiable, except in the mind of one person. Can we guess who? ;)

    Ian, you're an adult. So why debase yourself by manipulating the title?


    Sum Of The Parts was as a project first discussed with executives from Eagle Rock, the director

    John Edginton and Genesis at the TSPM offices in September 2012. It was originally going to be a Classic Albums style documentary about The Lamb. It morphed into a documentary about the Five man era.


    The initial edit was handed to the management (TSPM) and sent to the band members (all) by the middle of June 2014. The management didn't like the original edit (this included footage from 1976), so it was edited again and the documentary was given to someone else to edit/direct. This is when the talking heads were added.


    The original directors vision included using footage of the NYC skyline from the 1970's, but the production team found that 1970's NYC skyline footage was expensive. So modern day footage was inserted into the area about the Lamb. The director disagreed with this.


    The five men were interviewed and appear in the rushes during that interview for 2 solid hours. NO WE DO NOT HAVE THE RUSHES. The seating was wrong also, that film studio has nicer seating and less noisy seating but on that fateful day in March of 2014 at Sundown studios that was chosen.


    The production wanted to move away from the previous documentary cliches (regarding Genesis), although the management never put forward anyone's name. So the production was not aware of Alan Hewitt, Christian, Mario, Dave Negrin and others. Their archivist stumbled across The Genesis Archive and found some of our materials to be most interesting. That is how we became involved, this involved a trip to London to the editing suite, one Friday in May of 2014.


    The documentary could have been much better, this we can all agree on. But in the end its like the management used Eagle Rock and the BBC who part funded it, the BBC spent £300,000. To produce an electronic press kit for the R-Kive release and we all know how uninspired that release is.


    Out of all of the talking heads, the best choice was Al Murray. Not only is he an interesting comedian, but he is a Genesis fan and he is also a musician.


    In some respects the documentary gathered the five men in a room. It also tracked down people like Ed Goodgold who was pivotal in their early success in America. Whilst no one is sure whether it was a good or bad idea to have Jonathan King in the documentary, it has to be said that even documentaries about either of the World Wars include the point of view of most of the sides involved, Nazi's etc


    The footage they used of the roundhouse was expensive to licence from the current owner, but thats all there is of that era. People assume Genesis were filmed all the time and at the time being filmed was an expensive luxury few bands could afford. The fact you have the five men in a room, the three men at the farm and then one or two follow ups with Phil at his NYC home and Mike in Basingstoke during a break in the Mechanics touring. Is a benefit and a plus.


    The issue is not with Tony Banks as some allude to, but perhaps the management who represent the artists it manages. The BBC one show performance was going to have Peter and Steve as well as Mike/Tony/Phil, but the moment Peter pulled out, a decision was made not to continue with Steve on the One show.


    The band all received the final edit, before the premiere in London on the 2nd October 2014. So its not like anyone could be surprised, Phil was lively that night and did utter comments to certain parts of the documentary in a good humoured way. It was Mike Rutherford's birthday and after the show the band, executives from Eagle Rock and the original director and editor were invited to a celebration after party, as was Peter and Steve.


    People need to understand how productions work, they are projects that have budgets. Licensing footage if it can be found, is an expensive part of any documentary. Flying to NYC to interview Phil wasn't cheap either, nor did the members of Genesis do it for free. They got an appearance fee.


    I have always maintained that Genesis need a Beatles Anthology documentary, perhaps 5 to 6 hours in length. But I just don't think there is the budget out there or the appetite from the band or management.


    I'm happy to answer questions, but wary of what I can say.


    Kind regards,


    TGA

    You could always ask him. The rules on Simon's site stipulate that only officially released material can't be shared. Genesis and their management are fully aware of the site and appear to have no issues with the current content (which includes The Headley Grange tapes, an alternative mix of the Abacab album and the sessions for Selling England By The Pound). So where's the harm in asking him?


    I'm not sure why you would see offering the material you have obtained as being tantamount to "ransom". I mean, it is their intellectual property, right?


    Am I being overly naive here? I thought that, considering the band is now all-but defunct from a creative aspect, anything of archival interest would be hugely beneficial to both the band and its die-hard fans. There are a raft of fans who spend time and energy in preparing recordings to be shared online, many of whom I imagine also have "lives and jobs to be getting on with" (although in a period of national lockdown, you can scrub the latter off your list for most people), whose altruism is a credit to them.

    So aside from trying to get us to share something like the BASF reel, you ignored the other part of the post.


    TGA

    I agree, that’s what I was thinking when I watched it. I do think that the album may not have been lyrically as interesting if you got a few members contributing words for it. I think the scenes that Peter set out with those words are touching on genius as I see it. The fact that he was apparently sat in another room writing those words whilst the others were getting on with the music itself is also amazing. Considering what he was having to go through in his own personal life at that time makes me think it was amazing that he could write anything constructive and imaginative at all. A credit to him that he managed it. Tony Banks though equally has a dominant influence on the album with his keyboard work which I think he can be justifiably proud of, even though he doesn’t seem to look back on the whole experience with much enthusiasm.

    The band were going through an awful time, emotionally etc perhaps the Lamb reminds Tony of this more than he would like.


    TGA

    I’ve just had the opportunity to watch the dvd section of the 1970-75 Lamb disc, amazing how much Tony Banks seems to not rate the album that highly?, I wonder if he has changed his opinion of it since then?. Most fans would rate it as their best work I would guess?. A great watch. I do hope they one day re issue these boxes, seems to me a no brainer and would be a good seller now the equipment to play it on has decreased in price, I remember SACD was quite a niche product and expensive when it came out, which for the most part it still is with regard to audiophile labels.


    Not really Wayne, a Sony Playstation 2 could play SACD's but for the better quality you needed to spend a bit more. At one time we had a Sony DVD/Sacd player that was less than £300. We brought a Denon separate DVD/Sacd player for £180, when we went over to separates. The myth that the SACD players were hugely expensive or the lack of research from the majority of the music buying public killed SACD.


    Nick Davis and I had the same model system in the mid 2000's a Sony Dav S-550 which came with a player, amp and 5 speakers plus the Sub. Peter Gabriel's UP SACD sounded excellent on it.


    Kind regards TGA.

    Regarding the BASF tapes that you have of The Lamb mixes, how come these haven't been made available to the band for their mooted upcoming box set? Or, come to that, how come you haven't made them available to the fans on sites such as Traders Den or The Movement?


    I note on your YouTube site that someone asked you why they haven't been made more freely available, and you were quite abrupt in your reply, claiming that "everyone wants something for nothing". A rather churlish attitude, in light of how much stuff that is available for fans to share freely. You wouldn't happen to be sitting on these tapes, hoping for the band's management to make you an offer would you? In the same way that Tony Maylam refused to release the full version of his film White Rock for use on the 1976 - 1982 box set unless Genesis gave him a ton of money.


    Its one BASF tape, handed to us by someone who brought it from a flea market in Blackheath, its path to the flea market for us is unknown but likely to be less than orthodox. For your information non of us at TGA ransom stuff to the band. That tape cost us £120 to have professionally transferred. We cannot upload all of it to Youtube, it would incur a copyright strike and be taken down.


    Anyone is able to create a comparison video and upload those to Youtube, so thats what we did. The reason why we have not created more comparison videos, is that they take a lot of time and research. Remember we all have lives and jobs to be getting on with.


    Same as we cannot offer it to Simon F's site because we imagine the management would come down hard on Simon F. As for Youtube, people who make non of the effort, who don't put the hours in or offer anything to help the website. Seemingly want something for free. Like others who have websites, we work hard, the collection of material we display is either from our own pocket or at the goodwill of others. We do work with elements of the community, because we believe in sharing our intelligence and collection.


    At least this time the missing footage is only missing because it was NEVER filmed in the first place! Yes, difficult to believe but true, but the decision not to film several tracks from these gigs (namely: Dodo/Lurker, the Eleventh Earl Of Mar Medley, Carpet Crawlers and the drum duet) was taken in order to comply with the restrictions on running time for commercial VHS releases at the time.


    Whilst we cannot speak for Tony Maylam, our last correspondence with him did indeed reveal that he has all of the rushes for Glasgow, Stafford and the truck carrying the equipment down the M6. We got the impression money was not the stumbling block from Tony's side.


    We hope that answers your query.


    Kind regards,


    TGA

    I like to look on those 1994 remasters as being the definitive versions of the original mixes whereas the Nick Davies remixes are an attempt to shed new light through old windows, so to speak. As a fan, it's important to me to have both versions because the original mixes were what I heard first when collecting the albums all those years ago and so I suppose I'm sentimental about those mixes.

    I get that, but in this Lamb comparison video you will be able to notice the difference. The 1994 Definitive Edition Remasters, only came from the stereo masters, not the multi track masters. There was some audio trickery to make those sound half decent.



    Hope that helps,


    TGA

    Could one of you folks who owns these sacd/dvd boxes remind me what they cost when they came out retail?. I do realise that the price they go for now makes your eyes water!!. I wouldn’t pay the price they ask on the auction site as I’ve never really been into CDs as much as vinyl records, I bought every vinyl record from And then there were three on release or not far from it. Funny how I remember seeing such titles in Woolworths at the time. I really wonder why they haven’t thought about re issuing them again?.


    Certainly they were around £99.00 to £120. Depending on which ones you got!


    Hope that helps,


    TGA

    On that 1980 tour there was also a right old brouhaha, some say furore, when it was discovered that an entire gig - Birmingham? Liverpool? - had somehow been given completely over to fan club members. I'm not sure if that's true or if so how it would've happened but there was definitely a big old froth about it.


    But yeah as I understand it, the 80 tour satisfied a hankering they had to return to the smaller venues of their earlier career, including a nostalgic Aylesbury Friars Club gig for which the ticket queue went twice around the entire globe. Or something.


    If only there was an archive somewhere, where you could read music papers and other bits from the era...

    https://thegenesisarchive.co.u…s-1980-to-2020/duke-tour/


    The article in question: Sounds 9th February 1980 - https://thegenesisarchive.co.u…dressed-as-a-ticket-tout/


    Kind regards,


    TGA

    Yes applying logic to the news I broke to the wider community, its likely to be material they already have released.


    Rather than them producing/editing/balancing the sound on stuff they have not released.


    I for one would love to see The Mama tour documentary that the band commissioned, look carefully at the end credits of the Mama video you can see them on there and being credited.


    Kind regards,


    TGA

    Back to near sanity (play nice folks).


    Yes legal entities, company names and accounts are often public domain. A lot can be learned from trawling through these. Ray did not appear as a director in any Genesis or Tony Smith related company accounts.


    That said, the concept of being a member has never been formally established either. But in the cold light of day does it really matter? it doesn't change history.


    Still, all good to see people talking / debating etc


    TGA