Posts by StillCan'tDance

    Sorry for hijacking the thread about CAS even further, but your comment about Potoker's remixes for IT reminded me that I prefer his remix of LOC to the original album version - it's fantastic! :thumbup:

    Oh yes! It just amps up everything that's great about that song and takes it to another level. Small wonder that both Phil and Genesis used him during this period; the work he did is proof of just how vital a remix can be.

    That's simply not correct. Mama is a different edit. Anything She Does is a different edit. Several songs on The Way We Walk and Genesis Live use different/fewer overdubs. There's a song on Trespass that has a drum part included that was never there on the original release. There were several times throughout the remixing where Nick Davis used different elements that are clearly not just "lifting the veil" of a muddy original mix.

    All the elements you hear on those new mixes were originally recorded at the time those albums were made. This has been confirmed by both Tony Banks and Nick Davis, both of whom know more about this issue than you or I.

    You wanna die in a ditch over this? Fine. Keep digging.

    Thanks for the details. Sounds like a fun hobby!

    It really is! It started when the Genesis remixes came out. I thought, no way am I putting those in my car to get bashed about. At first, I thought I'd just copy the albums onto a CDR, along with the respective B-sides, as I saw fit.

    The first album I did was Invisible Touch. As someone who actually likes what John Potoker did with the remixes of three of the songs off that album, I thought I'd try and take what I liked from his remixes and edit them into the studio versions of the songs. I have my own home studio because I'm a professional singer so I'm used to mixing and mastering my own stuff so I already had the gear I needed to do the job.

    Combine that with a good ear and a deathless love for the music and here we are!

    It's not something that would appeal to everyone. I know most people are probably purists where this stuff is concerned and they would see what I'm doing as sacrilege. But what I do is for me and I have a lot of fun doing it. Obviously, I've bought all the albums that I'm working with and I would never make copies of this stuff for anyone else (although people have done similar things on the Movement site and there doesn't appear to be an issue with it).

    If anyone is interested, on the Movement site, version 3 of the soundboard/audience matrix of the penultimate Genesis show from the Wind And Wuthering tour is now available.

    There are a few top quality bootlegs from this tour available but this show must surely rank alongside the very best of the Genesis bootlegs. Not much I can say about the recording, really; the performance speaks for itself.

    What was your process for integrating the live solo to the studio song and what version did you use? Have not the inclination, skills or tools to try anything like that myself but I am curious about it.

    It's actually not that difficult. First step is to get yourself an editing program. A free one like Audacity will do.

    The source for my edit was the Nick Davis remix, Ray Wilson's Live With The Berlin Symphony In Poland and one of the bootlegs from the Calling All Stations tour (either Poland or Mannheim, I'm not sure). Luckily, the 'live' performances were at the same tempo as the studio version, although the version on Ray's album was in a different key (changing the key wasn't a problem as I wasn't using a section with vocals in it).

    Ray's version of the song has the guitar solo occur immediately after the bridge and I thought that worked well so I followed suit. So, it's bridge, solo from the Ray album and then solo from the Genesis concert and then back into the studio version.

    Getting the solo to the point where it integrated seamlessly with the sound of the studio cut involved a lot of fiddling with EQ, compression and all that jazz but I didn't mind. My fan-edits are a labour of love for me (not for my wife, though; she hates them! "Can't we just listen to the album as it was intended?" she will often say.) and I'll work on them for as long as it takes. Many's the time when I've committed something to disc only to decide, after a few listens, that I need to go back and do it again.

    Aside from the origins of concept albums, what about the albums themselves, both obvious and less obvious, prog and non-prog? Albums labelled as 'concept' but it's arguable, or those not labelled as such but could/should be?

    I've always considered Bitches Brew, the 1970 album by Miles Davis, to be a concept album, simply in terms of how various takes were spliced together to create longer pieces of music. The method of using the studio as a musical instrument builds on the work of George Martin's work with The Beatles, taking it to a whole new level.

    As an aside, Bitches Brew is my all-time favourite album by any artist, of any era, in any genre.

    If you'll permit me, music writer Paul Tingen describes the album thus:

    Bitches Brew also pioneered the application of the studio as a musical instrument, featuring stacks of edits and studio effects that were an integral part of the music. Miles and his producer, Teo Macero, used the recording studio in radical new ways, especially in the title track and the opening track, "Pharaoh's Dance". There were many special effects, like tape loops, tape delays, reverb chambers and echo effects. Through intensive tape editing, Macero concocted many totally new musical structures that were later imitated by the band in live concerts. Macero, who has a classical education and was most likely inspired by '50s and '60s French musique concrète experiments, used tape editing as a form of arranging and composition. "Pharaoh's Dance" contains 19 edits – its famous stop-start opening is entirely constructed in the studio, using repeat loops of certain sections. Later on in the track there are several micro-edits: for example, a one-second-long fragment that first appears at 8:39 is repeated five times between 8:54 and 8:59. The title track contains 15 edits, again with several short tape loops of, in this case, five seconds (at 3:01, 3:07 and 3:12). Therefore, Bitches Brew not only became a controversial classic of musical innovation, it also became renowned for its pioneering use of studio technology.

    Peter Gabriel's third album is one example, where all the songs seem to focus on themes of fear, anxiety, and violence.

    Has he claimed it to be a concept album? Sometimes these terms are foisted upon the artist with little or no consideration to the artist's intent. I read a review somewhere of Phil Collins's Testify album, claiming it to be a concept album, going through each and every song to prove the claim. Although I'm not as familiar with Testify as I am his other albums, my guess is that a concept album was the furthest thing from his mind when he made that record.

    The music on TLLDOB is great but the story is a mess

    And this is simply fighting talk lol.

    Except that the 12" versions of "Mama" and "It's Gonna Get Better" were not remixes. They were the complete versions of the songs from which the album versions were edited.

    I personally consider these the true versions of the songs, and don't even bother with the edited album versions -- especially IGGB, where the short version has awkwardly been left with only one verse section.

    Absolutely. I've mixed the ending of the 12 inch version of Mama with Nick's new mix, adding the studio banter from the Work In Progress mix to the beginning and end of the song and it's bloomin' marvellous. The banter gives the song the sense of audio verite (a bit like some of the old Led Zeppelin songs such as In My Time Of Dying and Black Country Woman).

    I may not (claim to) be an expert on Frank, have no desire to be

    Kind of shot yourself in the foot there with that comment, didn't you? Should have quit while you were behind.

    Greater minds than yours - who aren't even self-confessed experts on the subject of Sinatra's music - have already deemed the records I mentioned to be concept albums.

    Incidentally, might I suggest that when discussing a subject, it's not the wisest thing to do to proclaim that you don't know what you're talking about and then proceed to grandstand about the very subject about which you've already admitted ignorance. Unless, of course, you don't want anyone to take anything you say seriously in which case, crack on.

    Deep cuts usually means lesser known songs by a band. Ones not getting much if any radio play and usually only really appreciated by big fans of a band. Casual fans won't be familiar with a band's "deep cuts" but they're often favorites of some hard core fans.

    That explains why Jon Favreau referred to a scene in one of the Star Wars films as a "deep cut" in a recent documentary I watched. Who comes up with these idioms? I'd love to know so I can smack them upside the head as a reminder that the language was working perfectly well before they started dicking about with it.