Would anything on the trio albums have fit well on the previous albums?

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    Quote from MoonlitKnight

    Here is the one contradiction in the whole “they went to hell in a hand basket after Hackett left” argument: Hackett himself claims he left because he wasn’t getting enough of his ideas through on the albums. If that’s true (as Hackett himself claims), his impact on the music of the “golden era” was, by his own admission, not as substantial as was the input from other members.

    He still left his unmistakable mark. But in fact the decay was already making itself felt with W&W... One example: the unbearably sugary 'One for the Vine' or 'Your Own Special Way' (er... that's two, innit). ATTWT has its moments, but after that there were... no more 'rock' guitars.


    And that period in time saw the end of the prog rock era as a whole, definitely.

    Quote from Lazlor

    Not sure what you mean by 'facts and figures', but why argue? It's shorthand for something we all understand: a very specific period (that also happens to be THE defining era of the band) and that cannot easily be described any other way.

    Oh, that I have no problem with, if it's used to define Steve's tenure which coincided with a certain period of the band, then, as you say, why argue? If, however it's done with the purpose of giving Steve more specific weight than he actually had, then I disagree and must refer to facts and figures, meaning how much of a say did he have, how many songs has he contributed to, how many has he penned on his own and what was his impact on the band. It's the minority, mind you but they are.... Passionate and not really objective. They are the same who would correctly claim that he was stifled in the band but would also say that it was no coincidence the band was done after and because he left which is a contradiction in terms. Things are never evenly distributed in a band, he was by all intents and purposes the 5th member, the layer on the cake. I don't know what's controversial about that.

    Edited once, last by Fabrizio ().

    Well... the really good pieces are the ones they all contributed to, aren't they? We all heard what Dancing Out with the Moonlit Knight sounds like without Steve, for instance: a nice ditty, instantly forgotten.

    Quote from Lazlor

    Well... the really good pieces are the ones they all contributed to, aren't they? We all heard what Dancing Out with the Moonlit Knight sounds like without Steve, for instance: a nice ditty, instantly forgotten.

    No, not necessarily imo, good songs have been penned individually, as a trio, as a band or as a Duo. I love Steve's contribution to DWTMK. I strongly disagree that without that, it would be forgettable.

    Edited once, last by Fabrizio ().

    Quote from Lazlor

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    He still left his unmistakable mark. But in fact the decay was already making itself felt with W&W... One example: the unbearably sugary 'One for the Vine' or 'Your Own Special Way' (er... that's two, innit). ATTWT has its moments, but after that there were... no more 'rock' guitars.


    And that period in time saw the end of the prog rock era as a whole, definitely.

    I agree re: You’re Own Special Way. It’s completely forgettable. I disagree completely about One for the Vine. I think it’s a beautiful song. We can agree to disagree on that one.

    Quote from Fabrizio

    No, not necessarily imo, good songs have been penned individually, as a trio, as a band or as a Duo. I love Steve's contribution to DWTMK. I strongly disagree that without that, it would be forgettable.

    It would be a song within the usual, universal, boring song format (as heard on the trio's live outings) - not the formidable piece of Genesis music that it is ;)

    Quote from Lazlor

    It would be a song within the usual, universal, boring song format (as heard on the trio's live outings) - not the formidable piece of Genesis music that it is ;)

    As I said, I disagree, while I'm happy with the final result, there's nothing boring to it.

    Quote from Lazlor

    Why just the final part? Hackett's all over this one.

    I should go back and check but I seem to remember that the core of the song is Gabriel's and I want to say Rutherford's but I'm not sure. Steve wasn't involved in chords, harmony and lyrics, rather with the instrumental parts which don't get me wrong are great but are on top of what had already been fleshed out. Again, someone will have a better recollection and I'll stand corrected but the point remains, it's a great song, in its entirety.

    Quote

    It's a bit like saying Cinema Show would be just as good without the instrumental parts, isn't it...

    You know, Cinema Show instrumental is based on a Banks/Collins/Rutherford jam... So, what's your point ? Hackett is God ? Everything without him is shit ?


    Hackett himself said it took some time before daring to compose and propose things to the band, because he didn't feel as strong as the others. So he wasn't "all over the place" at all. There are greater chances that any bit you like in the "classic-prog" era was actually composed by Gabriel/Banks/Rutherford.

    It wasn't until he released his first album that he felt he was strong enough, and from this point, he never stopped composing but his ideas were often rejected, for being too... "convoluted" I think.

    The problem is, I think, that he thought his role had to evolve in the band : he went from a "shy" player, greatly contributing to the sound, but not composing too much (For Absent Friends, Can-Utility, end of Moonlit Knight, After the Ordeal, Cuckoo Cokoon), to a full composer asking for an equal share.

    At the same time, Banks and Rutherford, who were founders of the band, were also composing a lot. The position and status were different.

    So Steve chose to leave...

    The band went on, Steve too...


    It's not that dramatic. We should get over it, it has been 44 years.

    You do realize you're putting an awful lot of words in my mouth, dontcha ? (Sounds painful!) ;)


    Nowhere am I saying that Hackett composed a lot in those days (although you forget the whole middle section/guitar solo of Moonlit Knight - the end is as much Rutherford as Hackett anyway). I was saying he left his mark in the arranging as well—as you put it, 'greatly contributing to the sound'—, also influencing the writing decisions (since just about everything was scrutinized by all) and (with Gabriel, obviously) steering the band in directions it would never go later on.


    When he finally left there was nobody left to counterbalance Banks's overpowering presence, which is why everything kind of sounds like a Banks/Collins solo album from then on...

    Quote from Lazlor

    You do realize you're putting an awful lot of words in my mouth, dontcha ? (Sounds painful!) ;)


    Nowhere am I saying that Hackett composed a lot in those days (although you forget the whole middle section/guitar solo of Moonlit Knight - the end is as much Rutherford as Hackett anyway). I was saying he left his mark in the arranging as well—as you put it, 'greatly contributing to the sound'—, also influencing the writing decisions (since just about everything was scrutinized by all) and (with Gabriel, obviously) steering the band in directions it would never go later on.


    When he finally left there was nobody left to counterbalance Banks's overpowering presence, which is why everything kind of sounds like a Banks/Collins solo album from then on...

    Let's see and correct me if I'm wrong: you said everything worthwhile about this song is Steve's, you then proceeded to disparage the rest of the song, reducing it to a sappy, 3 man era ditty which is amusing but hey, it's your opinion. You then said that Steve is all over this song which considering he wasn't the main catalyst, nor was he involved in the chords, melody and/or lyrics, basically the backbone of any song, is quite a bizarre statement. I'm not forgetting any section played by him or Phil for that matter, in fact I consider DWTMK very much a band effort, a brilliant one, where again some of the members had more of a say than others. The fact that Steve was influencing the writing decision appears to me as your very personal interpretation, I think Phil had more clout when it came to discussing arrangements and ultimately, this interpretation of yours contradicts history, statements from the band and from the man himself. I think he left because he felt they didn't let him express himself or are we rewriting history?

    Edited once, last by Fabrizio ().

    Quote from Lazlor

    I'm not reducing it to anything - the trio did that when playing it live.


    And Hackett certainly is a major presence on the SEBTP version. Only here would people dispute that.

    I think you should go back and read your words about the rest of the song and again, it's a band effort, can we agree though that he wasn't the one who brought in the song or any bit and didn't have anything to do with chords, melody, harmony and lyrics? Then of course, he pitched in, nobody denies that.

    We certainly agree that it was a band effort - which is exactly what I was saying yesterday.


    But you should go back and listen to the piece again. ;)


    As for who brought what, it seems the main bits were from Gabriel and him - but it's difficult to find conclusive evidence other than aural - and again, his guitar is all over that tune.

    Quote from Lazlor

    We certainly agree that it was a band effort - which is exactly what I was saying yesterday.


    But you should go back and listen to the piece again. ;)


    As for who brought what, it seems the main bits were from Gabriel and him - but it's difficult to find conclusive evidence other than aural - and again, his guitar is all over that tune.

    No, you said that the song is relevant because of Steve, otherwise and I quote;'' It would be a song within the usual, universal, boring song format (as heard on the trio's live outings) - not the formidable piece of Genesis music that it is'' , because all songs begin with an a cappella intro of course.....

    You appear to have different intel over who brought in what, to the best of my recollection Steve wasn't involved but I'll never claim to have the Genesis Gospel and I'm sure there are Forum members here who can shed some light on the matter. Ultimately I'm not downplaying Steve's contribution, you just like his bits and are simply enhancing it.

    OK, not just Steve's parts: without the instrumental parts that are absent from the trio's live version. I like the SEBTP version as is, with EVERYONE's contribution. Of course, the main instrumental part is Steve's guitar solo (the famous tapping part), that lifts the song to an entire other level as far as just about everyone is concerned.

    Quote from Lazlor

    OK, not just Steve's parts: without the instrumental parts that are absent from the trio's live version. I like the SEBTP version as is, with EVERYONE's contribution. Of course, the main instrumental part is Steve's guitar solo (the famous tapping part), that lifts the song to an entire other level as far as just about everyone is concerned.

    I don't enjoy the trio live version either for so many reasons that I won't go into now and yes, his tapping part is outstanding and an essential contribution to a song that otherwise wouldn't really be shabby either and he didn't write. You can make a parallel, if you will with FoF and his legendary solo, truly one of his peaks, still not his song, isn't it? You can say that it elevates the song, not that it makes it which is exactly the case with DWTMK.