Songs I'm Afraid to Admit I Don't Like

Quote from mdepps

Y'know I'm almost with you in that I recognise that all the best stuff was done in the 70s.

In some ways I'd even go further because I can't find anything on Duke I love.

OK, I get it now! Duchess has made your playlist but you don’t love it. Fair enough! I do love it, however. It’s one of those tracks banging on the door of my top 10, along with Mar, Squonk & Stagnation. At a pip I’d go for Mar despite that dreadful ‘daddy’ lyric. It’s got such a powerful build to it and is even now still growing on me. (Sorry, Squonk, you’ve been demoted yet again!)

I also think you might be underestimating how much I like ‘Duke’ as an album. Whereas you are somewhat apologetic for liking side 1 of ‘Genesis’, I feel no such guilt over ‘Duke’. I’ll admit that it’s an unbalanced album with the collaborative work far surpassing their individual compositions yet, apart from the strong exception I take to Collins as a song writer in general (There’s only so much sickly sweet saccharin I can take. Such a pity Noel Gallagher never got his severed head in his fridge) I would take the album over Trespass anyday. I would acknowledge though, that if we consider their output in the 70s then both these albums which bookend the decade are the weakest* (No doubt, you’ll understand from my earlier post that I’m disregarding the radio-ready piffle that followed as being beyond the pale)

*excluding ‘The Lamb’ of course, which we both consider to be experimental tripe.

Quote from Fabrizio

True; and that generally applies to any band. They have after all an album to promote, that's generally the reason for going on the road but in the spirit and logic of prioritizing the most recent material, an album like Abacab shouldn't be left out I guess. Again though, I freely admit that while acknowledge the extreme importance of the album, I don't think much of its material so I am most likely biased

Unless that band is Yes. Poor dears, no-one wanted to hear the later stuff and they've been reduced to some sad cabaret act. Both versions of the band!

By the time of the We Can't Dance tour, Abacab was eleven years old. Hardly qualifies as recent material, really.

Quote from StillCan'tDance

By the time of the We Can't Dance tour, Abacab was eleven years old. Hardly qualifies as recent material, really.

New course album, their first, sound-wise still fresh and relevant. If it had had any good or extremely successful songs they would have played them but again, it is my opinion. I am sure Phil would have welcomed not having to sing Mama, he didn't have the voice for that song anymore. He simply couldn't leave it out. Mama like IT is a sure bet, although for different reasons.

Quote from Fabrizio

New course album, their first, sound-wise still fresh and relevant. If it had had any good or extremely successful songs they would have played them but again, it is my opinion

And still eleven years old at the time of the We Can't Dance tour.

If you watch the documentary on the Abacab DVD, you can see what the band think of the album in terms of its success and what they think of the material.

Quote from Gabble Ratchet

OK, I get it now! Duchess has made your playlist but you don’t love it. Fair enough! I do love it, however. It’s one of those tracks banging on the door of my top 10, along with Mar, Squonk & Stagnation. At a pip I’d go for Mar despite that dreadful ‘daddy’ lyric. It’s got such a powerful build to it and is even now still growing on me. (Sorry, Squonk, you’ve been demoted yet again!)

I also think you might be underestimating how much I like ‘Duke’ as an album. Whereas you are somewhat apologetic for liking side 1 of ‘Genesis’, I feel no such guilt over ‘Duke’. I’ll admit that it’s an unbalanced album with the collaborative work far surpassing their individual compositions yet, apart from the strong exception I take to Collins as a song writer in general (There’s only so much sickly sweet saccharin I can take. Such a pity Noel Gallagher never got his severed head in his fridge) I would take the album over Trespass anyday. I would acknowledge though, that if we consider their output in the 70s then both these albums which bookend the decade are the weakest* (No doubt, you’ll understand from my earlier post that I’m disregarding the radio-ready piffle that followed as being beyond the pale)

*excluding ‘The Lamb’ of course, which we both consider to be experimental tripe.

...and let’s not forget the other great strength to Duke is Phil’s drumming. It’s rare to come across a song so convincingly transformed by the drum track as ‘Duchess’.

Quote from PhillyBoy

...and let’s not forget the other great strength to Duke is Phil’s drumming. It’s rare to come across a song so convincingly transformed by the drum track as ‘Duchess’.

His drumming at times on that album is phenomenal even by his already high standards. It's especially creative on Duchess and adds to the generally superb and rich soundscape of that song. That track sounds like nothing else they ever did. Comfortably in my top 10.

I also love his drumming on Duke's Travels, the one word I keep thinking when I hear it is 'joyous'. In particular the bit that sounds like a sort of prog-rock highland reel, the drumming leaps and skips around accordingly, like an excited westie.

Quote from Backdrifter

I also love his drumming on Duke's Travels, the one word I keep thinking when I hear it is 'joyous'. In particular the bit that sounds like a sort of prog-rock highland reel, the drumming leaps and skips around accordingly, like an excited westie.

I agree. His drumming on Duke's Travels really is outstanding.

Yup! I’d agree about the superlative drumming on Duke and if any track counts as a drum solo with instrumental support, it’s Duke’s Travels.

Quote from Backdrifter

His drumming at times on that album is phenomenal even by his already high standards.

Did he double-track the drums on some of the songs? Certainly Man of Our Times and Duke's Travels sounds double-tracked. Duke may have been the album where they'd strongly considered flying Daryl and Chester over, such was the high regard they had for the "new members" of Genesis. In the end, they decided that, practically, it wasn't a good idea. In the time it would take to get the two of them over from America, they could have already put down whatever extra guitar and drums they needed.

Quote from StillCan'tDance

Did he double-track the drums on some of the songs? Certainly Man of Our Times and Duke's Travels sounds double-tracked. Duke may have been the album where they'd strongly considered flying Daryl and Chester over, such was the high regard they had for the "new members" of Genesis. In the end, they decided that, practically, it wasn't a good idea. In the time it would take to get the two of them over from America, they could have already put down whatever extra guitar and drums they needed.

I do wonder about double tracking on the drums, you may be right.

You've reminded me of a 1979 interview with Stuermer in which he said "I'm going to be on the next album" so yeah at some point it was considered to the point where he was confident enough to say that.

Quote from Backdrifter

You've reminded me of a 1979 interview with Stuermer in which he said "I'm going to be on the next album" so yeah at some point it was considered to the point where he was confident enough to say that.

I think it would have been wonderful to have had Daryl and Chester guesting on the albums; it would cement the favourable comments that Tony, Mike and Phil have made about them throughout the years.

Quote from StillCan'tDance

I think it would have been wonderful to have had Daryl and Chester guesting on the albums; it would cement the favourable comments that Tony, Mike and Phil have made about them throughout the years.

Chester perhaps but what would be the point when you have Phil? Daryl would make more sense but although is a fantastic player, I really don't like his sound and I don't think he is a good fit for Genesis music.

Quote from StillCan'tDance

I think it would have been wonderful to have had Daryl and Chester guesting on the albums; it would cement the favourable comments that Tony, Mike and Phil have made about them throughout the years.

Quote from Fabrizio

Chester perhaps but what would be the point when you have Phil? Daryl would make more sense but although is a fantastic player, I really don't like his sound and I don't think he is a good fit for Genesis music.

What bands has Chester been involved with as a serious player..... Just curious!!...  

Quote from Noni

What bands has Chester been involved with as a serious player..... Just curious!!...  

Oh, I don't know: Zappa's Mothers of Invention and Weather Report, just to mention a couple every musician would dream of having on their resume. Ask Phil what he would have given to be able to play with WR, they are the reason why Brand X even exists.

Quote from Fabrizio

Oh, I don't know: Zappa's Mothers of Invention and Weather Report, just to mention a couple every musician would dream of having on their resume. Ask Phil what he would have given to be able to play with WR, they are the reason why Brand X even exists.

I think he also played with the Pointer Sisters..

Quote from Noni

What bands has Chester been involved with as a serious player..... Just curious!!...  

How can you not even know this? Every self-respecting Genesis fan knows that Chester played with Zappa and Weather Report.

Quote from Fabrizio

Chester perhaps but what would be the point when you have Phil? Daryl would make more sense but although is a fantastic player, I really don't like his sound and I don't think he is a good fit for Genesis music.

Well, like any premier musician, Chester has his own style and feel and, in that sense, would have made a great contribution to the Genesis sound. I love Daryl's playing on the Genesis and Phil Collins stuff but his solo albums leave me absolutely cold.

Quote from StillCan'tDance

Well, like any premier musician, Chester has his own style and feel and, in that sense, would have made a great contribution to the Genesis sound. I love Daryl's playing on the Genesis and Phil Collins stuff but his solo albums leave me absolutely cold.

Even when they became more...Let's say accesible, I 've always thought of Genesis as quintessentially British. Perhaps, not as much as when the recorded SEBTP, when they dealt directly with Britishness but still ver British. it wasn't only the lyrics, no matter how much Peter and Phil loved black music, it was always filtered through them being very English. Daryl, although a terrific player is exactly not that. His sound, playing, style, feel, even his chops,, everything about him is profoundly American, as revealed by his delivery of the FoF solo when given a bit room to do his thing. Noting wrong with that of course, I love American music, particularly black music but it's a matter of identity and to me Genesis, at least the Genesis I got on board with really didn't need a jazz-rock fusion American guitarist. Steve had to struggle to get his guitar heard and when he left they decided not to replace him, it speaks volumes on what they thought of the guitarist role in the band. Given the material they released afterwards, I fail to see what substantial contribution he could have made to the band. The same I guess he made to Phil's records which was imo not really relevant. No legendary guitar parts to speak of there. He has been around for decades and I have a lot of respect for him but I have always regarded him as a hired gun and without wanting to belittle him , I think that's what he was.

Quote from Fabrizio

Even when they became more...Let's say accesible, I 've always thought of Genesis as quintessentially British. Perhaps, not as much as when the recorded SEBTP, when they dealt directly with Britishness but still ver British. it wasn't only the lyrics, no matter how much Peter and Phil loved black music, it was always filtered through them being very English. Daryl, although a terrific player is exactly not that. His sound, playing, style, feel, even his chops,, everything about him is profoundly American, as revealed by his delivery of the FoF solo when given a bit room to do his thing. Noting wrong with that of course, I love American music, particularly black music but it's a matter of identity and to me Genesis, at least the Genesis I got on board with really didn't need a jazz-rock fusion American guitarist. Steve had to struggle to get his guitar heard and when he left they decided not to replace him, it speaks volumes on what they thought of the guitarist role in the band. Given the material they released afterwards, I fail to see what substantial contribution he could have made to the band. The same I guess he made to Phil's records which was imo not really relevant. No legendary guitar parts to speak of there. He has been around for decades and I have a lot of respect for him but I have always regarded him as a hired gun and without wanting to belittle him , I think that's what he was.

Well, I think the addition of such a celebrated jazz fusion player was a profound improvement on the 'live' sound of Genesis. Any number of Hackett solos was lifted far beyond what he achieved by Daryl's playing. Not to mention the solos he added to The Lady Lies, Behind The Lines, It's Gonna Get Better and Jesus He Knows Me. My favourite guitarist is John McClaughlin and while Steve might claim that there were parts of Selling England that would "give Mahavishnu Orchestra a run for their money" Genesis really were never in the same league as that group.

While I agree that the Genesis of the early days was not really a guitarist's band, once Steve left Mike's more direct approach seemed to be given greater visibility. Deep In The Motherlode, Misunderstanding, Abacab, Like It Or Not, Home By The Sea, I Can't Dance and Driving The Last Spike all had celebrated guitar parts.

Quote from StillCan'tDance

Well, I think the addition of such a celebrated jazz fusion player was a profound improvement on the 'live' sound of Genesis. Any number of Hackett solos was lifted far beyond what he achieved by Daryl's playing.

I totally agree with the fact that Daryl and Chester helped improving the band's sound and performance live but the studio and their creative process is another thing entirely. I completely and absolutely disagree that Daryl lifted Steve's solos. Their playing is really apples and oranges. Steve's playing and sensibility fit perfectly to the band's aesthetic. Daryl's not at all.