Random bits of Genesis stuff.

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    Couldn't see anywhere to put this so have started a thread.

    I was in a rock pub the other night . Pictures all over the place (including the ceiling) . Thought I'd share.

    Edited 4 times, last by Mr.Farmer ().

  • In what other way is it a rock pub apart from the pics?


    I wonder if there are drill pubs, electropop pubs or ambient drone pubs.

    As you asked. It's rock pub on basis that it provides a refuge for old rockers and a fair few young ones as well. It's the Queen's Hall in Nuneaton. I don't go there very much but I really ought to. The place is festooned with pics and memorabilia. They have bands playing every weekend, and a rock disco until 2.00am Fridays and Saturday after the band. Seems like all the bar staff have piercings and tattoos, it may be compulsory. The upstairs part of the Queen's Hall is separate and is known as the Crew, it's a small venue ( at a wild.guess about 300 capacity) where bands are put on 2 or 3 times a week, ticketed gigs only. We went to see Phil Campbell and the Bastards Sons there on Friday. I think it was a warm up gig. Not listed on their tour dates promo. We had a great night, fantastic band followed by rock discotheque to the early hours. Haven't done that for ages. I think I'm still fit enough to manage that a couple of times a year now. You've made me think now , the thought of an ambient pub. People sitting around in silence staring vacantly and forgetting to drink!! I've been to one or two of those as well. Actually am quite miffed that John Otway and Wild Willy Barret are playing there in October on a date we can't make. Would love to go to that one.

  • You've made me think now , the thought of an ambient pub. People sitting around in silence staring vacantly and forgetting to drink!! I've been to one or two of those as well.

    Hahaha! Yes I have too. Ambient pioneer Brian Eno suggested there should be quiet clubs, which I think is a good idea. A pub or club with comfortable seats and sofas, and playing ambient drone, would be terrific. I once went to a place in Belfast called The Quiet Bar, and indeed it was. It came closest to an ambient pub/quiet club I've yet experienced.


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    Actually am quite miffed that John Otway and Wild Willy Barret are playing there in October on a date we can't make. Would love to go to that one.

    That is frustrating. I did once get to see Otway play as part of a Robin Ince gig at the Edinburgh Fringe, very enjoyable. I love the story that he did a single, 5 copies of which had an instrumental b-side and a coupon to send in with your address on. The lucky 5 would get him come round to their house to sing live along to the instrumental.


    Many years later he was asked how it went. With genuine regret he said that sadly no-one took him up on it.

    Abandon all reason

  • I was chatting to someone last night who turned out to a Genesis fan. His favourite album is ATTWT. I think it's a brilliant album but doesn't make my top four. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say it's their favourite.

  • I was chatting to someone last night who turned out to a Genesis fan. His favourite album is ATTWT. I think it's a brilliant album but doesn't make my top four. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say it's their favourite.

    It was my introduction to Genesis and for a while I cited it as my favourite, particularly early on when I had a small collection that included ATOTT, SEBTP and W&W.

    I'm fairly certain the next one after that I got was Nursery Cryme and that's when ATTW3 was usurped and my rankings began to shift.

  • Just enjoying the BBC broadcast release. Listening to the first CD gave me a huge new appreciation for Get Em Out By Friday and during that track I thought the lines "it's said now that humans will be shorter in height, they can fit twice as many in the same building site" might be one of the most scathing takedowns of capitalism ever.


    Actually this CD sounds amazing and is giving me a huge new appreciation of all things early Genesis. They were amazing. The Musical Box? Twilight Alehouse? Best ever.

  • I acquired this today for 6 dollars in a record store. This is where it all began for me 33 years ago! I was 10. I don't know where my original copy went, probably discarded in a clean out at home by my parents at some point. It's nice to have it again in this most nostalgic of formats!


  • The TOTW thread on CAS title track led to this exchange on the increasing tendency of Genesis songs to fade out rather than have 'proper' endings. I thought I'd avoid derailing that thread and continue the topic here.


    Schrottrocker is right, up to and including Duke less than half their songs faded out. Early on, when they did fade it was sometimes as an 'outro', eg Harold, Moonlit Knight, Firth, Counting Out Time, Mouse's, or as a bookend eg IKWIL - unusual in fading both in and out on the same drone. On the Lamb there are a few cross-fades as well as the direct segues that all serve the ongoing story aspect.


    It's a shame that such a creative band came to rely almost wholly on a formulaic song ending style. They seemed to lose that sense of using fadeouts sparingly in a way that served the song constructively, as in some of the above examples. It coincides with setting up The Farm and making songs via studio jams. Could that be a reason for it, beyond mere correlation?


    The Beatles rarely used fadeouts, and certainly on their early albums - while still a touring band - they wrote partly with stage performance in mind, wanting to ensure songs had proper endings that could be played live. Presumably Genesis, who as we all know could be ruthlessly unsentimental about their material when it came to live shows, created the songs in the studio and therefore thought of them purely as studio entities to be adapted as needed if played live. It would explain the often peremptory "this'll do" BRRRRM-TSSSHHH approach to song endings on stage - the worst of which for me being the appalling clod-hopping hamfisted ending to Duchess on the final tour.


    Here's Paperlate in its complete original studio version (ie no fade-out), which I like a lot. Do we know if there are any other similar 'complete'/non-fade-out versions of their songs out there?


    And here's the far superior original It's Yourself with its MMM opening-like ending. I think someone on here said the reason it fades on Archive 2 is in the intervening years that bit of master tape had corrupted. I hope that's the reason as it's too irritating to think they consciously took the stupid decision to fade it.

    Abandon all reason

  • here's the far superior original It's Yourself with its MMM opening-like ending. I think someone on here said the reason it fades on Archive 2 is in the intervening years that bit of master tape had corrupted. I hope that's the reason as it's too irritating to think they consciously took the stupid decision to fade it.

    My understanding is that "Submarine" was the song that was missing its original ending on ARCHIVE 2 due to tape damage, although they apparently found a way to resolve this in time to feature the proper version on the 1976-1982 box set.


    As for "It's Yourself," my understanding is that the band simply didn't like the original ending, and thus indeed "consciously took the stupid decision to fade it." Assuming that's true, feel free to be irritated with them!

    “When the waitress asked if I wanted my pizza cut into four or eight slices, I said, ‘Four. I don’t think I can eat eight.’” -- Yogi Berra

  • My understanding is that "Submarine" was the song that was missing its original ending on ARCHIVE 2 due to tape damage, although they apparently found a way to resolve this in time to feature the proper version on the 1976-1982 box set.


    As for "It's Yourself," my understanding is that the band simply didn't like the original ending, and thus indeed "consciously took the stupid decision to fade it." Assuming that's true, feel free to be irritated with them!

    Right yes of course, I forgot Submarine originally had a better ending. I've evidently mixed those two songs up.


    Now as you say I have licence to feel irritated at their silly amendment to the IY ending. Daaaaah!

    Abandon all reason

  • Generally I don't have a problem with fadeouts. They're just fine for a lot of songs. When a proper ending is added for live performances of a Genesis song that fades out in the studio version, I tend not to consider it an improvement.


    That said, "Congo" easily has the most objectionable fadeout in Genesis history. It leaves the song sounding incomplete. I think it still could have been faded, but at a different spot -- say, after a return to the chorus.

    “When the waitress asked if I wanted my pizza cut into four or eight slices, I said, ‘Four. I don’t think I can eat eight.’” -- Yogi Berra

  • I think fadeouts are a bit of a lazy way to end a song. Prior to recordings, music was only live and all songs and musical pieces had to end.


    Genesis can end songs well without a fadeout. The Knife, The Musical Box, Watcher of the Skies, etc. all ended just fine.


    Genesis can also create totally fine live endings for songs that originally had fadeouts. Firth of Fifth just took the repeated sequence to resolution. Ripples ended the repeated choruses the way they naturally end in the rest of the song. Los Endos has a perfectly good ending. Abacab has a great ending. Carpet Crawlers is fine with a gentle ritard. Afterglow has a majestic ending. It makes me wonder why they didn't try a little harder to end the songs for the studio versions.


    Genesis can also create pretty dire live endings for songs that originally had fadeouts. The ending for Cinema Show on Seconds Out makes me cringe every time. The ending for Mama is so weak compared to the power of the rest of the song.

  • Thanks Backdrifter, I wanted to start this topic for quite a while.


    Genesis can also create totally fine live endings for songs that originally had fadeouts. Firth of Fifth just took the repeated sequence to resolution. Ripples ended the repeated choruses the way they naturally end in the rest of the song. Los Endos has a perfectly good ending. Abacab has a great ending. Carpet Crawlers is fine with a gentle ritard. Afterglow has a majestic ending. It makes me wonder why they didn't try a little harder to end the songs for the studio versions.

    It is interesting that Supper's Ready and Carpet Crawlers kept the fade-out even in live versions! Or at least what an emulation of a fade-out becomes when played live. These songs cannot have a better ending, the fading is like the main hero riding into the distance at the end of a movie.


    Abacab has such a strong ending in all live versions. The studio version though features one of the most disappointing fadeout endings imho. The guitar solo has just begun - oh no, we're run out of time, sorry, gotta go... What's more, the single version is even worse. What if we recycle the intro as an outro, and - oops, the intro actually starts the song, who could have seen that coming, well yea, let's just fade it down. :rolleyes:

  • Thanks Backdrifter, I wanted to start this topic for quite a while.

    It is interesting that Supper's Ready and Carpet Crawlers kept the fade-out even in live versions! Or at least what an emulation of a fade-out becomes when played live. These songs cannot have a better ending, the fading is like the main hero riding into the distance at the end of a movie.

    I don't have a problem with fading down in a live performance. Genesis have always been great with dynamics. In these cases, they fade down to a true ending.

  • I think the fade out thing exists also because of the lack of space on vinyl records. If would add 15 to 20 seconds or even more for each song to finish properly. Genesis records were already quiet long, maybe they thought it would compromise the sound too much.

    Of course, this does not apply to CAS, I think it's only a matter of "we don't know how to finish".

    Concerning Abacab, because it was a studio jam, maybe they didn't know how to end the song when they recorded it, and it only came later, by rehearsing for the tour with Daryl and Chester. But it's just a theory.

  • I found several items I got one Christmas about 30 years ago. The invisible touch live box had the other two items in it. The numbering on the back caught my eye. How many did they make?


    Other things that caught my eye:

    The "RPM 500" on the back of the land of confusion CD


    The way they capitalized the song titles LAND OF CONFUSION and FEEDING THE FIRE on the lyrics. Kind of silly and funny.


    The two songs from the longs thing I remember much less. Will have to listen again.


    But the Christmas these items came from are why I have a special feel for Do The Neurotic and Feeding the Fire in particular. As a late comer to Genesis and as a kid in the 90s, this really was like unearthing proper treasure. Love Genesis.


  • Guessing the "play 500rpm" references the vinyl version of the single, to make it as close as possible in style? CD's do need to spin at 500 when first loaded, to read the table of contents, at the inner section of the data track, but it slows during play, under control of the data, to about 200rpm at the outer edge. Read speed is about 1.4 metres a second.

    Ian


    Putting the old-fashioned Staffordshire plate in the dishwasher!