Your favorite tracks on ... "Invisible Touch"

Quote from Backdrifter

Yeah for me there was always something a bit too bright, shiny and clattery about the sound but as WinstonWolf said above the 07 remaster is a lot better.

That might have been more to do with the album being mastered by Bob Ludwig than the actual production. Hugh Padgham had been working with the band since Abacab but - as far as I know - Invisible Touch was the only album which they passed it on to an outside source to do the mastering. Bob Ludwig is something of a legend in the music business.

Quote from StillCan'tDance

That might have been more to do with the album being mastered by Bob Ludwig than the actual production. Hugh Padgham had been working with the band since Abacab but - as far as I know - Invisible Touch was the only album which they passed it on to an outside source to do the mastering. Bob Ludwig is something of a legend in the music business.

Separating the production/mixing from the mastering is probably a little more complicated than making it an either/or situation, but I agree that the problem with Invisible Touch's overall sound probably falls on the mastering to a greater degree.

I believe the problem of a bass-lite sound has to do with in the early days of compact disc the recording industry often used the same masters made for vinyl for CD, and vinyl needs a mix with less bass because it interferes with groove depth.

TTT, Land Of Confusion, and Domino for me.

I wonder how Nick happened across the few extra seconds of the closing jam on "Anything She Does" for the 2007 remaster (or, perhaps a better question, why doesn't the original version have that bit).

Quote from OneForTheVine

TTT, Land Of Confusion, and Domino for me.

I wonder how Nick happened across the few extra seconds of the closing jam on "Anything She Does" for the 2007 remaster (or, perhaps a better question, why doesn't the original version have that bit).

Nick went back to the original tapes, he didn't simply remaster the existing mixes. Anything She Does isn't the only song where previously un-used vocals were used; in Since I Lost You on We Can't Dance, there's a bit of vocal from Phil which is exclusive to that mix. And Mama was re-edited, using some bits that were cut from the album version (it's still not as long as the 12 inch version, though).

Quote from StillCan'tDance

Nick went back to the original tapes, he didn't simply remaster the existing mixes. Anything She Does isn't the only song where previously un-used vocals were used; in Since I Lost You on We Can't Dance, there's a bit of vocal from Phil which is exclusive to that mix. And Mama was re-edited, using some bits that were cut from the album version (it's still not as long as the 12 inch version, though).

That answers the question - thank you!

I adore the boxset version of the 1983 album, esp. "Mama" - I could finally hear Mike's bass-playing in it! It's a shame that they couldn't find the original tapes for the full-length versions of "Mama" and "It's Gonna Get Better" - I love those two versions. The second song, of course, reveals that the extra lyrics to it that we all hear on IGGB live on "The Mama Tour" video/DVD weren't just improvisations by Phil - they were part of the original, full-length version.

I do remember extra vocalization on SILY too - I'll have to go re-listen to it. Thanks again!

Quote from OneForTheVine

they couldn't find the original tapes for the full-length versions of "Mama" and "It's Gonna Get Better" - I love those two versions.

Is that why those versions have never been re-released??

Quote from OneForTheVine

It's a shame that they couldn't find the original tapes for the full-length versions of "Mama" and "It's Gonna Get Better" - I love those two versions.

The only tape that couldn't be found was that of Say It's Alright Joe from And Then There Were Three. The reason that the extra verse for It's Gonna Get Better wasn't used would have been down to the band, same as the reason for the longer edit of Mama not being used. Everything you hear (apart from the song mentioned) is taken from the original tapes of the respective albums.

Quote from DecomposingMan

Is that why those versions have never been re-released??

No.

Quote from Christian

The 12" mixes were not part of the boxsets, neither the Archive set, not the SACD-Sets. To me it looks more like they didn't want to put remixes on any of the sets

Except that the 12" versions of "Mama" and "It's Gonna Get Better" were not remixes. They were the complete versions of the songs from which the album versions were edited.

I personally consider these the true versions of the songs, and don't even bother with the edited album versions -- especially IGGB, where the short version has awkwardly been left with only one verse section.

I'm struggling to remember if the issue with the longer version of It's Gonna Get Better was ever addressed by Nick Davis.

Considering how many other songs in the remix project got new parts added in I don't believe the shorter IGGB was an artistic decision, especially since the longer version was how they performed the song live. I just don't remember if anyone asked Nick or if he ever answered.

Quote from WinstonWolf

Considering how many other songs in the remix project got new parts added

Nothing new was added to the new mixes. Everything you hear was already on the tapes in the first place.

Quote from DecomposingMan

Except that the 12" versions of "Mama" and "It's Gonna Get Better" were not remixes. They were the complete versions of the songs from which the album versions were edited.

I personally consider these the true versions of the songs, and don't even bother with the edited album versions -- especially IGGB, where the short version has awkwardly been left with only one verse section.

Absolutely. I've mixed the ending of the 12 inch version of Mama with Nick's new mix, adding the studio banter from the Work In Progress mix to the beginning and end of the song and it's bloomin' marvellous. The banter gives the song the sense of audio verite (a bit like some of the old Led Zeppelin songs such as In My Time Of Dying and Black Country Woman).

Quote from StillCan'tDance

Nothing new was added to the new mixes. Everything you hear was already on the tapes in the first place.

That's simply not correct. Mama is a different edit. Anything She Does is a different edit. Several songs on The Way We Walk and Genesis Live use different/fewer overdubs. There's a song on Trespass that has a drum part included that was never there on the original release. There were several times throughout the remixing where Nick Davis used different elements that are clearly not just "lifting the veil" of a muddy original mix.

Quote from WinstonWolf

That's simply not correct. Mama is a different edit. Anything She Does is a different edit. Several songs on The Way We Walk and Genesis Live use different/fewer overdubs. There's a song on Trespass that has a drum part included that was never there on the original release. There were several times throughout the remixing where Nick Davis used different elements that are clearly not just "lifting the veil" of a muddy original mix.

All the elements you hear on those new mixes were originally recorded at the time those albums were made. This has been confirmed by both Tony Banks and Nick Davis, both of whom know more about this issue than you or I.

You wanna die in a ditch over this? Fine. Keep digging.

I'm not saying "new" means recorded in 2007, but Nick clearly put some parts of the songs together differently in the remix than they were originally. Mama's outro is clearly longer and different than the original album version. Same with Anything She Does. Longer. Different vocals. The Way We Walk and Genesis Live are different because Nick didn't use all of the overdubs used on the original releases. Trespass has drums that were never there on the original version.

You're welcome to continue being contrary, but that ditch you speak of is only big enough for you.

Quote from WinstonWolf

You're welcome to continue being contrary, but that ditch you speak of is only big enough for you.

Nah, you're alright, old son; I'll just crack on with being right and you carry on with your own curious interpretation of what the word "new" actually means.

And it's "that ditch of which you speak" not "that ditch you speak of". Just trying to help.

Quote from StillCan'tDance

The banter gives the song the sense of audio verite (a bit like some of the old Led Zeppelin songs such as In My Time Of Dying and Black Country Woman).

Getting even further off topic, but... yes, that sense isn't something you really get on Genesis albums, is it? The (original) ending of "Anything She Does" is the only thing I can think of that even comes close. (In contrast, another favorite band of mine -- pre-1980s Chicago -- has quite of bit of that on various albums.)

Quote from WinstonWolf

I'm not saying "new" means recorded in 2007, but Nick clearly put some parts of the songs together differently in the remix than they were originally. Mama's outro is clearly longer and different than the original album version. Same with Anything She Does. Longer. Different vocals. The Way We Walk and Genesis Live are different because Nick didn't use all of the overdubs used on the original releases. Trespass has drums that were never there on the original version.

You're welcome to continue being contrary, but that ditch you speak of is only big enough for you.

Exactly! A remix, (rather than a remaster, which just manipulates the existing stereo mix), has, by definition, access to the original multi-track master. In the mid-60's that would be 4 tracks, becoming 8 in the late 60's, 16 during the early 70's and progressed to 48 while tape was in use. Nowadays, tracks are almost unlimited, Steve Hackett used 312 on Turn This Island Earth!

Clearly, some artists/producers would record things on some tracks of the multi-track master, and later decide to leave them off the final mix. Those might include alternative vocals (A Simple Game by the Moody Blues has Mike Pinder, the song's writer, on lead vocals on the long established version, but recently a version has surfaced with Justin Hayward doing the lead vocal. It's not a new recording, just a remix using a different vocal track.) Nick has clearly decided to use "other bits" in places, or omit some. There is an additional issue with a remix, sometimes, effects are added during mixing, and now, when Nick, in this case, does the remix, those effects are near impossible to do because the old equipment used to do it no longer exists (things like Wem Copycats, though that wouldn't be hard to substitute, or the old echo springs.)

You weren't wrong, just maybe not expressing it clearly enough, esp. for some people!

Quote from foxfeeder

esp. for some people!

Can't help yourself can you? Tell me, foxfeeder, how much do you charge to haunt a house?