Absolute Peak of Genesis?

    Quote from Liquid Len

    I agree. Love Trespass. From the acapela opening to the closing notes of The Knife, just excellent. Yes the drumming would much improve going from Mayhew to Collins; although I don’t find anything particularly weak about Mayhew’s drumming on this album. I’m always impressed that a group of 20 year olds, could write music this well. It’s quite amazing.

    I love it but it's simply too old, poorly produced, even by the standards of that time, particularly considering what bands like Yes were doing. Poorly arranged, some dodgy lyrics and the musicianship simply isn't there.

    I doubt anybody listening to this album today for the first time could get into it. Still, when stripped down to the core: chords, harmony and melodies the songs are very good. The talent was obviously there, the originality undeniable and the overall atmosphere is pure magic.

    Edited once, last by Fabrizio ().

    Quote from Fabrizio

    I love it but it's simply too old, poorly produced, even by the standards of that time, particularly considering what bands like Yes were doing. Poorly arranged, some dodgy lyrics and the musicianship simply isn't there.

    I doubt anybody listening to this album today for the first time could get into it. Still, when stripped down to the core: chords, harmony and melodies the songs are very good. The talent was obviously there, the originality undeniable and the overall atmosphere is pure magic.

    The 2008 remaster and new mixes imrpoves the LP : It's almost another album and the balance between the different instruments finally does the musicians justice.

    Quote from Ben

    The 2008 remaster and new mixes imrpoves the LP : It's almost another album and the balance between the different instruments finally does the musicians justice.

    I agree. Although I think the muddy, closed-off original mix gives the album a bit more character that supports the songs, both the 1994 DER and the 2008 remix really bring out a whole new sound for that album that I really like.

    Trespass is my favorite album and I listen to it very often. And I prefer the old mix because that kind of fog or veil that lies all over the sound is so unique. It should not have been unveiled. The new mix is just too clear.

    Quote from thewatcher

    Anyone know what the best recordings of that tour out there are? Anything like the Lyceum 1980 (I suspect not but thought I'd check!)?

    I think there may be a soundboard recording from the Saratoga Springs show. But it’s muffled in terms of the audience noise and the drums. My favorite audience recordings from the Encore Tour are (in no particular order) the 9/29/82 show at Hammersmith; the 8/19/82 show at Merriweather Post Pavilion (happy to say I attended that show) and the 8/9/82 show at the LA Forum. The LA show has mediocre sound quality but for me the audience reaction to Supper’s Ready more than makes up for it. The crowd goes crazy over the drum fills during A in 9/8 and their delirious, joyous cheering literally drowns out the last 10 seconds of the musical outro at the end of SR. And it puts the lie to the theory that fans of the “new stuff” can’t possibly like SR. After the song ends you can clearly hear a young woman say “I love that song!”

    Quote from Backdrifter

    How do you know she was a fan of the new stuff?

    It was an educated guess based on her reaction to other songs played that night and her tone of voice (sounded like someone hearing a song for the first time and really liking it). Also you can hear her friends sitting next to her talking during the mellow acoustic intro to Apocalypse in 9/8. One of them asks the other “Have you ever seen these guys before?” The other answers “No.” She had just scolded one of them for doing something she thought was obnoxious and I think the dude was trying to change the subject lol. Finally, this was America, circa 1982, post-In the Air Tonight. I know from my own circle of friends none of them had the faintest idea what Supper’s Ready was. We couldn’t understand what Phil was saying during the Romeo and Juliet intro and they had never heard the song anyway. All of that matches a comment from Tony Banks around this time, when he noted in an interview how pleased the band was with the reaction they were getting to SR from American audiences. So, back to your original question: I can’t know for sure, but judging from the context and reactions on the 8/9/82 LA Forum bootleg the individual I cited was probably hearing SR for the first time.

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    Quote from MoonlitKnight

    It was an educated guess based on her reaction to other songs played that night and her tone of voice (sounded like someone hearing a song for the first time and really liking it). Also you can hear her friends sitting next to her talking during the mellow acoustic intro to Apocalypse in 9/8. One of them asks the other “Have you ever seen these guys before?” The other answers “No.” She had just scolded one of them for doing something she thought was obnoxious and I think the dude was trying to change the subject lol. Finally, this was America, circa 1982, post-In the Air Tonight. I know from my own circle of friends none of them had the faintest idea what Supper’s Ready was. We couldn’t understand what Phil was saying during the Romeo and Juliet intro and they had never heard the song anyway. All of that matches a comment from Tony Banks around this time, when he noted in an interview how pleased the band was with the reaction they were getting to SR from American audiences. So, back to your original question: I can’t know for sure, but judging from the context and reactions on the 8/9/82 LA Forum bootleg the individual I cited was probably hearing SR for the first time.

    Ah.

    Abandon all reason

    I disagree with much of this. For one thing, “Rush” and “metal” in the same sentence is odd. Secondly, you’re characterizing me as seeing these bands through eyes I’m not seeing. I dont expect Genesis to behave a certain way. Actually I gave examples of different bands handling things differently? I’m merely stating that Genesis has an unusual history and I wish they had a more complete show where the prog era was concerned.


    I will stick by my statement that they went pop. It’s a no-brainer. Invisible Touch, Thats All, Follow You, Hold on my Heart, In Too Deep, Tonight, Throwing it All Away, etc….did I miss something? Are those prog songs? I could go on and on listing pop tunes. Do I hate those songs? Nah. Are they pop? Uh, yeah….


    If you listen to the interviews of the band on the reissues, they often times were very critical and negative toward the classics and most interviews from the guys are far more glowing and rosy where “the hits” are concerned.

    Quote from Art Vandaley

    I will stick by my statement that they went pop. It’s a no-brainer. Invisible Touch, Thats All, Follow You, Hold on my Heart, In Too Deep, Tonight, Throwing it All Away, etc….did I miss something? Are those prog songs? I could go on and on listing pop tunes. Do I hate those songs? Nah. Are they pop? Uh, yeah….

    I agree with the band (and BD) on this one. They always tried to write pop songs, the only difference in their later career is that they got much better at it. The songs you list are pop obviously, but so were Silent Sun, IKWIL, and Your Own Special Way. Equally, Home By the Sea, Domino, Driving the Last Spike etc were epics with an updated sound.


    I bet if they could have, they'd have had hit pop singles in the 70s, they just didn't have the tools. By this metric they didn't 'go' pop, they were always pop, they just weren't very good at it in the early days. Fortunately they were brilliant at other stuff 😃

    Quote from thewatcher

    I agree with the band (and BD) on this one. They always tried to write pop songs, the only difference in their later career is that they got much better at it. The songs you list are pop obviously, but so were Silent Sun, IKWIL, and Your Own Special Way. Equally, Home By the Sea, Domino, Driving the Last Spike etc were epics with an updated sound.


    I bet if they could have, they'd have had hit pop singles in the 70s, they just didn't have the tools. By this metric they didn't 'go' pop, they were always pop, they just weren't very good at it in the early days. Fortunately they were brilliant at other stuff 😃

    I’m not buying that they didn’t have the tools. I totally don’t buy either the fact that a group of brilliant musicians go a decade secretly yearning to write pop tunes, but due to some sort of mutual or mental constraints or bad prog influences on each other, they ‘settle’ into masterpieces like Lamb, Selling England, Foxtrot until such time as they could become Fleetwood Mac. I know Tony tried to claim the “We always wished we could write hits” claim, but I’m not buying it. Without Peter’s depth and Steve’s passion for prog, they were left with three. The three found pop I think more to cope, adapt, and stay relevant as prog was becoming a hated and mocked genre. Disco, pop, punk was the cool deal in the late 70’s, and when you discover Phil has a real penchant for pop tunes, you’d be crazy not to capitalize!


    I can listen to pop “hits” Genesis. It’s good. I did the other day. Turn it on Again and Throwing it All Away are great songs! But, oh man, Firth of Fifth or Cinema Show or Moonlit Knight come on, I have an ear to ear smile a mile wide.

    Quote from Art Vandaley

    I’m not buying that they didn’t have the tools. I totally don’t buy either the fact that a group of brilliant musicians go a decade secretly yearning to write pop tunes, but due to some sort of mutual or mental constraints or bad prog influences on each other, they ‘settle’ into masterpieces like Lamb, Selling England, Foxtrot until such time as they could become Fleetwood Mac. I know Tony tried to claim the “We always wished we could write hits” claim, but I’m not buying it. Without Peter’s depth and Steve’s passion for prog, they were left with three.

    Nicely put, if you listen to some fans you sometimes get the impression that Genesis messed around for a decade till they finally saw the light, honed their pop writing skills and at last began to get it right. I know there have been statements made by the three of them about this but just like you I don't buy it, it's press, what else were they supposed to say? They were pushing a narrative and advertising, just like any other artist. The bit that always disconcert me is when they talk about "evolving" and not doing the same things they've done before , a valid point per se but let's just say they approached things differently, evolving is an entirely different matter. Left to his own devices Tony would have kept writing 20 minutes long songs and if Brand X could have been his bread and butter, Phil would have left in a heartbeat. That's what they were about. The idea that in their mid - 30s they suddenly discovered ballads and pop, called it "evolving" and some fans believe it is frankly amusing to me.

    Quote from Art Vandaley

    I’m not buying that they didn’t have the tools. I totally don’t buy either the fact that a group of brilliant musicians go a decade secretly yearning to write pop tunes, but due to some sort of mutual or mental constraints or bad prog influences on each other, they ‘settle’ into masterpieces like Lamb, Selling England, Foxtrot until such time as they could become Fleetwood Mac.

    An odd distortion of what I said. They made no secret of writing pop songs. They wrote pop songs. Those just weren't very successful! They didn't settle into anything, they were great at their art form and released terrific albums.


    Quote from Art Vandaley

    I know Tony tried to claim the “We always wished we could write hits” claim, but I’m not buying it.

    On what basis do you think he is lying?


    Quote from Art Vandaley

    Without Peter’s depth and Steve’s passion for prog, they were left with three.

    Well, yes. Those sums add up.


    Quote from Art Vandaley

    The three found pop I think more to cope, adapt, and stay relevant as prog was becoming a hated and mocked genre. Disco, pop, punk was the cool deal in the late 70’s, and when you discover Phil has a real penchant for pop tunes, you’d be crazy not to capitalize!

    And I don't buy this. They saw what way the wind was blowing and decided to change tack? They were the ones blowing the wind (no offense Phil, Tony and Mike). No doubt Phil became a stronger song writer and performer, and this influenced the sound. But that's an organic thing, natural evolution. I don't for a sec buy that Tony and Mike looked and FV and thought 'woah, we gotta get on that train. Let's take a bit of a backseat here and cash in'. Not for a second. There's enough long form music and stuff like the Brazilian on Genesis' output in the 80s that wouldn't have been anywhere near a Phil solo album.


    Since we're trying to interpret what was going on in other people's minds 40 years ago, I can't see us reaching any agreement here, but suffice to say I'm not picking up what you're putting down here. It's a cynical take on the band. I totally get loving the old music and even disliking the new music (I know you mentioned you like it), but to basically say they sold out... Nope. Not for me.

    • Official Post

    They weren’t very successful pop songs? Singles from Invisible Touch were all over top 40 radio stations all through the late 80’s and early 90’s. Every supermarket, dentist office waiting room, every car radio played those songs. You get the point. Disagree strongly that they weren’t successful pop songs.

    Quote from Liquid Len

    They weren’t very successful pop songs? Singles from Invisible Touch were all over top 40 radio stations all through the late 80’s and early 90’s. Every supermarket, dentist office waiting room, every car radio played those songs. You get the point. Disagree strongly that they weren’t successful pop songs.

    They were extremely successful pop songs, huge but you are basically saying, correctly imo that they achieved elevator music status, although they would still throw in the occasional odd one and some fans might have a problem with that.

    Quote from Art Vandaley

    Without Peter’s depth and Steve’s passion for prog, they were left with three.

    I wouldn’t deny that after they left Genesis Peter and Steve leaned toward the “prog/artsy” side. But it’s also true that Peter in particular made a conscious decision to strip down his sound beginning with So. He and the others who worked on the album admitted as much. He has even said that he thought about making it an entire album of R&B songs “like Otis Redding.” And I have a hard time believing that songs on Us like Kiss that Frog and Steam were not fairly blatant efforts to recapture the commercial magic of Sledgehammer and (to a lesser extent) Big Time. In my opinion Peter’s failure to release a new studio album after nearly 20 years is reflective of the tepid commercial response to Up. I remember being shocked attending the concert in Washington, DC on that tour and seeing Peter perform before a half empty arena. As for Steve, I think he realized a long time ago that his niche is in releasing the occasional studio album of fresh material while frequently featuring Genesis songs on his tours. To be clear, I am not denying for a moment that the remaining three made a conscious effort to go more pop. Look at the songs they left off their albums: Naminanu; Submarine; You Might Recall; Do the Neurotic; Feeding the Fire; On the Shoreline. It’s not that they couldn’t write and record creative, less commercial music anymore. Rather, they chose to leave those songs off of their albums in favor of less complicated material. Having said that, I personally think that Peter was not immune to the commercial bug as well. After all, he wrote what was arguably the catchiest short 70s era song by anyone in the “Genesis family”: Solsbury Hill.

    Quote from Liquid Len

    They weren’t very successful pop songs? Singles from Invisible Touch were all over top 40 radio stations all through the late 80’s and early 90’s. Every supermarket, dentist office waiting room, every car radio played those songs. You get the point. Disagree strongly that they weren’t successful pop songs.

    thewatcher will answer I'm sure but I read his comment as referring to their early songs. They've repeatedly said their intention was to be a collective of songwriters for other artists. Shock horror - they wanted to write - eeeeeek! - hits... But obviously their early attempts at this weren't successful.

    Abandon all reason

    Like 1
    • Official Post
    Quote from Backdrifter

    thewatcher will answer I'm sure but I read his comment as referring to their early songs. They've repeatedly said their intention was to be a collective of songwriters for other artists. Shock horror - they wanted to write - eeeeeek! - hits... But obviously their early attempts at this weren't successful.

    now that I re-read the comment, I believe you’re right. I may have misunderstood, my bad.