Curious to know what your pet annoyance is with the English language.
Mine is the word " The" in front of Films, Books and Music.
Often I find myself deleting this word in front on the main subject. Why is this necessary
I lose half what I am trying to find because of the word "The"
Display MoreCurious to know what your pet annoyance is with the English language.
Mine is the word " The" in front of Films, Books and Music.
Often I find myself deleting this word in front on the main subject. Why is this necessary
I lose half what I am trying to find because of the word "The"
'The'is the definite article used to describe things just as 'le' or 'la' is in French. Would song titles like 'Knife' or 'Same Moon' (Phil) or 'Lamb Lies Down On Broadway' be any better? It's denoting something specific rather than generalised. Maybe because I'm a native English speaker it's so ingrained that I've never thought of it like that.
Anyway my pet hate is nouns being used as adjectives, for example describing a beautiful woman as a 'glamour'. She is nothing of the sort; she is 'glamorous'.
'The'is the definite article used to describe things just as 'le' or 'la' is in French. Would song titles like 'Knife' or 'Same Moon' (Phil) or 'Lamb Lies Down On Broadway' be any better? It's denoting something specific rather than generalised. Maybe because I'm a native English speaker it's so ingrained that I've never thought of it like that.
Anyway my pet hate is nouns being used as adjectives, for example describing a beautiful woman as a 'glamour'. She is nothing of the sort; she is 'glamorous'.
Yes I don't get the problem with 'the' or why/how it prevents or hinders finding things. I'm baffled by that.
This nouns-as-adjectives thing; in your example, do you mean some people say "She is glamour" instead of she is glamorous? I don't think I've ever heard anyone use that sort of construction.
These silly linguistic things sometimes grow and take hold. It still makes me shudder inside when instead of eg "I said no, while he said yes" I hear people say "I'm like, no and he's like, yes". It sounds so stupid but it's here to stay.
Yes I don't get the problem with 'the' or why/how it prevents or hinders finding things. I'm baffled by that.
This nouns-as-adjectives thing; in your example, do you mean some people say "She is glamour" instead of she is glamorous? I don't think I've ever heard anyone use that sort of construction.
These silly linguistic things sometimes grow and take hold. It still makes me shudder inside when instead of eg "I said no, while he said yes" I hear people say "I'm like, no and he's like, yes". It sounds so stupid but it's here to stay.
I've heard models, etc, referred to as 'the glamour' followed by their name, or 'the footballer has been dating the glamour' for six months''. Glamour is not a noun. There is a website here in Australia called The Iconic. The Iconic WHAT? Then there's nouns as verbs, such as 'he medalled' or even 'he podiumed' at the Olympics
I've heard models, etc, referred to as 'the glamour' followed by their name, or 'the footballer has been dating the glamour' for six months''. Glamour is not a noun. There is a website here in Australia called The Iconic. The Iconic WHAT? Then there's nouns as verbs, such as 'he medalled' or even 'he podiumed' at the Olympics
Hmmm, I see what you're getting at but these might need a bit of qualifying. If you say "it was done with a big dose of glamour" or that someone has glamour, isn't it a noun? And can't you refer to a group of iconic people as 'the iconic' as you might 'the heroic'? (Although the website you mention might not intend that sort of approach).
But yes the verbing of nouns in the way you referred to is pretty bad!
Hmmm, I see what you're getting at but these might need a bit of qualifying. If you say "it was done with a big dose of glamour" or that someone has glamour, isn't it a noun? And can't you refer to a group of iconic people as 'the iconic' as you might 'the heroic'? (Although the website you mention might not intend that sort of approach).
But yes the verbing of nouns in the way you referred to is pretty bad!
Yes, you're right of course. If you HAVE glamour, that's a noun.
The Iconic is a clothes shop:
Thing is English ( it's the only language I know) is ever changing and always had been. There are new words and phrases that changes how we speak and much is different from how we spoke 40 years ago. Which was different from war time different from the Victorian era etc.. There must have been many an Elizabethan complaining about Shakespeare and the constant new words / phrases that he was inventing. I bet they were saying they didn't have a clue what he was on about half the time. Actually I do now!
Thing is English ( it's the only language I know) is ever changing and always had been. There are new words and phrases that changes how we speak and much is different from how we spoke 40 years ago. Which was different from war time different from the Victorian era etc.. There must have been many an Elizabethan complaining about Shakespeare and the constant new words / phrases that he was inventing. I bet they were saying they didn't have a clue what he was on about half the time. Actually I do now!
I also wonder if people at the time were irritated by Shakespeare's neologisms. But given it was common for people to freely change the spelling of their own names - Shakespeare himself is known to have done this - perhaps they were generally more fluid about the language and unthinkingly accepted new words.
You are of course right, the language constantly evolves. And as it does, it's a given that the older people of the present will always complain about it. Just as they'll do so about newer music.
On a tangent from the above: Peter Hall, who was one of our great Shakespeare directors and founder of the RSC, said that in about 200 years from now Shakespeare's Elizabeth texts will have become as increasingly difficult to comprehend as Chaucer's Middle English is to us now. He said he could see the beginnings of it in that over his 50 years of directing Shakespeare successive cohorts of actors had increasingly struggled with the text. I found this interesting.
My own coin to toss into this particular hat: the American way of ordering at a food counter or cafe. "Yeah, I'm gonna do a cinnamon raisin bagel with cream cheese". Sounds so obnoxious. Apart from the fact that a cinnamon raisin bagel with cream cheese is not something you "do". Not everyone speaks like that but it's quite common.
......will always complain about it. Just as they'll do so about newer music.
Hardly surprising though, is it. Here's a Christmas song, as done in "newer music":
Ms Banks – On My Way (Official Video) I +44 I Amazon Music - YouTube
I don't have a problem with language 'evolving' as long as it follows basic rules, hence I will always object to adjectives and verbs being turned into nouns.
I don't want to make a big thing about Americanisms but the way they use the phrase 'I got' instead of 'I have got' or 'I've got' annoys me.
I also wonder if people at the time were irritated by Shakespeare's neologisms. But given it was common for people to freely change the spelling of their own names - Shakespeare himself is known to have done this - perhaps they were generally more fluid about the language and unthinkingly accepted 0new words.
You are of course right, the language constantly evolves. And as it does, it's a given that the older people of the present will always complain about it. Just as they'll do so about newer music.
I don't have a problem with language 'evolving' as long as it follows basic rules, hence I will always object to adjectives and verbs being turned into nouns.
I don't want to make a big thing about Americanisms but the way they use the phrase 'I got' instead of 'I have got' or 'I've got' annoys me.
I do get a little annoyed myself but begrudgingly accept the changes as they are inevitable. Americanism's irritate me as I think English English should be changed by the English. Americans can do what they want with American English. (The rest of the UK seem not to have that issue ) . But that's just me. Perhaps it's due to my dislike of colonialists which is what the British were and many still long for and is what the USA is now. ( Contraversial ?)
I didn't know that about Tudors freely changing spellings. Maybe at some point it was said that we must stop evolving and stick to rules. Maybe it was when the printed word became widely available and then radio / TV . Things are maybe changing more quickly now due to the mass of social media. Maybe. So why should we stick to rules? All the best art and cultural advances have occurred when rules have been broken.
I don't have a problem with language 'evolving' as long as it follows basic rules, hence I will always object to adjectives and verbs being turned into nouns.
But like it or not - not in your case! - those changes of use and the basic rules are part of the evolution:
QuoteThings are maybe changing more quickly now due to the mass of social media. Maybe. So why should we stick to rules? All the best art and cultural advances have occurred when rules have been broken.
As per the above point made by Mr.Farmer
Americanism's irritate me as I think English English should be changed by the English. Americans can do what they want with American English.
But Americanisms appearing in English English (British English?) is a change by the English. It happens because English people absorb those usages from film, TV etc and start using them. Ones that irritate me are "Can I get..." instead of "Can I have..." when ordering in restaurants, and the adoption of the annoyingly coy "Ewww" to express disgust when we already had the much more effective and naturally flowing "Euuurrrggh".
Similarly, I heard an interesting thing recently - some Americans are getting irritated by their kids and their generation adopting English/British English from British tv shows and films, so apparently it happens in either direction.
On a tangent from the above: Peter Hall, who was one of our great Shakespeare directors and founder of the RSC, said that in about 200 years from now Shakespeare's Elizabeth texts will have become as increasingly difficult to comprehend as Chaucer's Middle English is to us now. He said he could see the beginnings of it in that over his 50 years of directing Shakespeare successive cohorts of actors had increasingly struggled with the text. I found this interesting.
FAR too much snobbery about WS. Me like most struggle to understand it so it's no longer for the masses . It needs to be studied if your going get it which defeats the object of it . Probably worth studying as I know it's the basis for so much of our culture. It has to be said it's somewhat dated. I did get through A Midsummer Nights Dream . There were bits that I'm sure would have had the Elizabethans rolling in the aisles but now surely could only raise a deliberate high brow eye brow.
And another thing. Why do we get warned about dated language and themes on Fawlty Towers ( I love FT bit don't actually object to the warnings) but never a word of warning when a Shakespeare play occasionally gets put on. I think it's because they know most people haven't a clue what's going on and those that do, know it so well beforehand anyway they're Shakespeare fans who treat everything he did in a god like manner.
Display MoreBut like it or not - not in your case! - those changes of use and the basic rules are part of the evolution:
As per the above point made by Mr.Farmer
But Americanisms appearing in English English (British English?) is a change by the English. It happens because English people absorb those usages from film, TV etc and start using them. Ones that irritate me are "Can I get..." instead of "Can I have..." when ordering in restaurants, and the adoption of the annoyingly coy "Ewww" to express disgust when we already had the much more effective and naturally flowing "Euuurrrggh".
Similarly, I heard an interesting thing recently - some Americans are getting irritated by their kids and their generation adopting English/British English from British tv shows and films, so apparently it happens in either direction.
You are right0 of course . It's just me being old.
FAR too much snobbery about WS. Me like most struggle to understand it so it's no longer for the masses . It needs to be studied if your going get it which defeats the object of it . Probably worth studying as I know it's the basis for so much of our culture. It has to be said it's somewhat dated. I did get through A Midsummer Nights Dream . There were bits that I'm sure would have had the Elizabethans rolling in the aisles but now surely could only raise a deliberate high brow eye brow.
And another thing. Why do we get warned about dated language and themes on Fawlty Towers ( I love FT bit don't actually object to the warnings) but never a word of warning when a Shakespeare play occasionally gets put on. I think it's because they know most people haven't a clue what's going on and those that do, know it so well beforehand anyway they're Shakespeare fans who treat everything he did in a god like manner.
Well I suppose it is dated... given it's from 400 years ago!
You say a number of things here, most of which I disagree with. There is some snobbery about Shakespeare just as there's snobbery about a lot of stuff - it's a quality I dislike intensely regardless of how it manifests and that includes the occasions it happens on this board, such as when members are snooty and dismissive about types of music. It's a reaction that's different from simply disliking stuff, which is fair enough, and smacks more of thinking oneself too good for it, which isn't. Anyone thinking themselves superior on the basis of liking Shakespeare (or anything) needs bringing down to earth.
But don't make the mistake of deriding Shakespeare admirers as "highbrow" or asserting that hardly anyone understands it. I've been to enough productions in venues ranging from big plush theatres to small shabby studios, sitting among audiences of diverse social/cultural backgrounds, to know that assertion isn't accurate.
Despite the work being centuries old there's something about it that endures globally. As to its humour falling flat, well yes that can happen in a production that falls short, which applies to any work of any vintage and equally to drama and tension potentially not working either.
Ultimately though some will never get on with it regardless of whether they had it taught well at school, which can be a problematic starting point. I'm just glad enough click with it and enable me to see vibrant productions by enthusiastic young performers.
Re reading my last post does look a little insulting and a didn't mean it to be. Just picking up on your comment about Shakespeare being increasingly difficult to understand . It does need
studying to understand , formally or self taught informally. I give it a go now and again as I keep being told it's so essential. Even went to the RSC once as I live only 20 miles away. And of course many many millions of people have gotten a great deal or out it. ( Should I start a sentence with And?). I also think that the Elizabethan sense of humour must have been very different from ours and I imagine that there would have belly laughs at stuff we simply don't find that funny anymore. I read Merchant Of Venice at school and watched a TV production ( years later) but was never told it's comedy. I found that out year later and asked myself the question, how the hell could I know that simply by reading it? Also yes the snobbery aspect is as you say the same with modern culture , but I think people can be intimidated saying they don't like or get Shakespeare.for fear of being considered uneducated.
So a year ago Mrs Farmer and I separated for a month, as she went to live and isolate with her mother . All due to Covid. She went again today , this time for a few days. All due to Covid . As she left she said " it feels like deja vu all over again".
Re reading my last post does look a little insulting and a didn't mean it to be. Just picking up on your comment about Shakespeare being increasingly difficult to understand . It does need
studying to understand , formally or self taught informally. I give it a go now and again as I keep being told it's so essential. Even went to the RSC once as I live only 20 miles away. And of course many many millions of people have gotten a great deal or out it. ( Should I start a sentence with And?). I also think that the Elizabethan sense of humour must have been very different from ours and I imagine that there would have belly laughs at stuff we simply don't find that funny anymore. I read Merchant Of Venice at school and watched a TV production ( years later) but was never told it's comedy. I found that out year later and asked myself the question, how the hell could I know that simply by reading it? Also yes the snobbery aspect is as you say the same with modern culture , but I think people can be intimidated saying they don't like or get Shakespeare.for fear of being considered uneducated.
Completely understand you weren't intending to be insulting 👍
I'm not sure the Elizabethan sense of humour was necessarily all that different in that they, as we still do, laughed at stuff like misunderstandings, deceit/misdirection, mocking the pompous etc so a lot of the essential ingredients are there but rather the context, language and setting make it feel very different. A good production will bring the humour out. I once even saw a Hamlet that mined laughs from the text where I didn't expect them, some audience members didn't like it but I thought it worked.
Beyond doing Macbeth at O-level I've never studied Shakespeare as such. I really "got" Macbeth at school, helped by a very good teacher and when I became a regular theatregoer I just started seeing Shakespeare productions. I'll still go to Macbeth whenever I can and love seeing the range of different approaches as is the case with any play I see more than once. But we each have our own angle and if some prefer to study the plays as part of their experience that's fair enough.
I agree it's a shame if anyone feels intimidated or looked down on for not liking or getting Shakespeare. That shouldn't happen and it's a very poor show by those being snooty enough to create that feeling in others
Following your native speakers' discussion with great interest.
I had to steal this from facebook, this is perfect for this thread:
