I am actually “afraid” they might do this keg of the tour, but EU citizens won’t come due to restrictions in connection with the delta variant (quarantine regulations etc). Or in other words, it could happen that travel won’t be that easy then but the shows will go ahead as planned. Not the likeliest of all predictions, but if that happens, I really would be quite disappointed. I know a lot of fans from Germany who want to see a UK show.
GENESIS - UK/Ireland Tour 2020 rescheduled for FALL 2021
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So this is a lie. You think you are for freedom of choice, but you are not. We are in a global pandemic where I give the virus to you, and you give it to your Granny who dies, because it's a virus and it doesn't care. A vaccine is created and made at breakneck speed by scientists who work long hours and aren't paid very much, who are employed by large multinational companies that are headed up by directors and CEOs who work (long hours? Short hours? Who cares?) and are paid disgustingly large amounts of money. The vaccine greatly lowers the risk of me getting the virus, which greatly lowers the risk of you getting it from me, which lowers the risk of your Granny dying in this way. There's a vanishingly tiny risk of the vaccine turning my face inside out. I decide to get the vaccine. You, and your Granny, are welcome. I didn't compromise your freedom of choice, I don't think, but I played a small role in protecting you (not a big deal, you were at low risk anyway) and your Granny (a bigger deal. The poor soul is a sitting duck).
But wait. You exercised your freedom of choice and didn't get the vaccine. Wonder of wonders you get infected with the little blighter. "Pfft, who gives a shit! 0.2% chance of dying, me! FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!". But would you believe your luck, because nature's copywriting system makes mistakes all the time, and some of those mistakes are serendipitously advantageous, you generate a variant within the temple that is your godlike structure. That's right - dun dun dun! - the seven-eight variant. It's a squillion times more contagious than the omega variant (that's the one where the nanobots from the vaccine were fused by 5G to the virus, total nightmare). The seven-eight variant has an R0 of 9,000. But you don't give it to 9,000 people, you just give it to me, and I get it because the seven-eight variant has a mutation that makes the spike protein turn purple and grow balls, and not care that I'm vaccinated. I don't feel sick - I guess I'm lucky like you - so I don't know any better and I give it to my Granny. The seven-eight variant is a Granny-eater and she dies.
Now I'm confused. I thought I was exercising my freedom of choice to protect my Granny. I never really cared that much about protecting myself, because I have a 0.2% chance of dying, but Granny was much higher risk. Someone, without my knowledge, took away the choice to protect my Granny from me. Who was it? Oh, it was you.
On a sidenote, an "alternate view" to the truth is a falsehood. Common examples include "of course a person can eat more than 4 Jacobs cream crackers within a minute without drinking anything", "yes, Kim-Jong Un led the first manned mission to Neptune last week" and "ivermectin could have ended the pandemic".
Thank you. You just saved me half an hour's typing!
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Well I think we know the answer to that: no.
The notion of questioning is vital, it's at the very root of our existence, it's essentially what science is. Then it becomes a matter of how you question, on what basis, and what you do with the answers. At that point, some of the time any alleged intelligence goes out of the window. We're seeing a dispiriting amount of that in relation to covid.
Exactly. Questioning things with a degree of intelligence might very well be, but just questioning because some other people are, is just being a puppet.
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I am actually “afraid” they might do this keg of the tour, but EU citizens won’t come due to restrictions in connection with the delta variant (quarantine regulations etc). Or in other words, it could happen that travel won’t be that easy then but the shows will go ahead as planned. Not the likeliest of all predictions, but if that happens, I really would be quite disappointed. I know a lot of fans from Germany who want to see a UK show.
I think it could be the likeliest of predictions. Whilst I'm no fan of Boris Johnson I believe him that we will open up completely in July in the UK. I don't think this is the correct thing to do. We should still have testing or proof of vaccination for large events. But in the governments mind they are only worried about how many people are showing up at the hospital. They don't want scenes like we see in India of people dying outside the hospital waiting to get in. Not good for re-election So I believe this tour will take place. As for people coming from the EU I expect it will depend on infection rates in each country. You have 1500 cases a day in Germany right now so they are managing to keep it quite low at the moment.
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Well I think we know the answer to that: no.
The notion of questioning is vital, it's at the very root of our existence, it's essentially what science is. Then it becomes a matter of how you question, on what basis, and what you do with the answers. At that point, some of the time any alleged intelligence goes out of the window. We're seeing a dispiriting amount of that in relation to covid.
I think I created a minor tangle here. I was trying to be cute by showing my intelligence by questioning his or her assertion that questioning everything was a sign of intelligence. Or something like that.
I completely agree with what you said. Questioning is what science is. I think this concept has been misappropriated though - most prominently by Trump - to mean that a random individual who has zero knowledge or expertise in a field can decide they don't like the opinion/theory/knowledge of someone has expertise, and by the mere fact of 'questioning' said opinion, feel like they are legitimately participating in the scientific process somehow because that's what science is. It's a catch 22 for those like yourself and myself who are open to anything being questioned as long as the basis of said questioning is valid somehow. Life saving, foundational discoveries have been made in this way. Truthfully, anyone can ask any question about anything that legitimately occurs to them, an expert can be blinded and not see the obvious.
Unfortunately, "they" don't give a shit about validity. As long as the old process of knowledge-communication is disrupted and their target audience comes away from any news article about the topic raging about Bill Gates, 5G, Covid, Soros, or the minotaur itself: COVID-5G. (That's the version where Bill Gates has fused with George Soros, and they have miniaturized themselves and replicated billions of copies of the resultant virion and infect every cell of every living thing on earth. The head of the DUP is the last remaining human too toxic to be infected by this extinction-threatening virus and is consequently the last remaining hope for humankind. Unfortunately his response is "NO" and we are done for).
I think we need some baseline level of trust in experts among the population, otherwise in the example of a pandemic or a climate catastrophe, how can we communicate knowledge to people? I don't know the right answer here.
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I think I created a minor tangle here. I was trying to be cute by showing my intelligence by questioning his or her assertion that questioning everything was a sign of intelligence. Or something like that.
I completely agree with what you said. Questioning is what science is. I think this concept has been misappropriated though - most prominently by Trump - to mean that a random individual who has zero knowledge or expertise in a field can decide they don't like the opinion/theory/knowledge of someone has expertise, and by the mere fact of 'questioning' said opinion, feel like they are legitimately participating in the scientific process somehow because that's what science is. It's a catch 22 for those like yourself and myself who are open to anything being questioned as long as the basis of said questioning is valid somehow. Life saving, foundational discoveries have been made in this way. Truthfully, anyone can ask any question about anything that legitimately occurs to them, an expert can be blinded and not see the obvious.
Unfortunately, "they" don't give a shit about validity. As long as the old process of knowledge-communication is disrupted and their target audience comes away from any news article about the topic raging about Bill Gates, 5G, Covid, Soros, or the minotaur itself: COVID-5G. (That's the version where Bill Gates has fused with George Soros, and they have miniaturized themselves and replicated billions of copies of the resultant virion and infect every cell of every living thing on earth. The head of the DUP is the last remaining human too toxic to be infected by this extinction-threatening virus and is consequently the last remaining hope for humankind. Unfortunately his response is "NO" and we are done for).
I think we need some baseline level of trust in experts among the population, otherwise in the example of a pandemic or a climate catastrophe, how can we communicate knowledge to people? I don't know the right answer here.
I think the right answer for those who question the advice of experts is to move to Brazil, where there are no restrictions.
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But David Hasselhoff said he found freedom by being vaccinated. All part of a ridiculous campaign in Germany. Hopefully he will be a support act for Genesis on the upcoming tour. I can already imagine a duet with Phil. This is a land of confusion.
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The experts and powers that be:
all seemed to catch it, while lecturing us on how not to
said no evidence of human to human transmission
said it wasn't airborne, then it was
said little risk of spread at large indoor events, then outlawed them
said little risk of spread at large outdoor events, then outlawed them
put perspex screens everywhere which block airflow, and do nothing for airborne particles coming over the top
said masks are useless then enforced the wearing of them
decided public health policy with mathematical models which routinely get it wrong
patronised the public with silly slogans and songs to wash your hands to
over ventilated people, and bought shedloads of unused machines
built nightingale hospitals which were clearly never going to be used
went around shaking people hands in a pandemic
allowed the infected into old peoples homes
allowed the uninfected to get infected in hospitals.
have moved the age at which you can get certain approved vaccines due to safety worries, another mathematical model.
have as far as I know done little or nothing to assess the cleanliness,safety,airflow,practices of the hospitality/leisure industry which is about to open up.
People who question this aren't the same people claiming the vaccinated can stick spoons to their heads. You don't need any expertise or hindsight to question it, it was obvious from the start.
next slide please.. Smart motorways.
Smart motorways are, indeed, a dumb idea. But they are purely a political decision, no one forced it on anyone. A virus however, doesn't follow a political agenda, it follows biology.
So, given your "clear" expertise on the subject, explain Brazil, and how no action at all has been better or worse than your (factually inaccurate in places) assessment of places that have dealt with the pandemic.
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The experts and powers that be:
all seemed to catch it, while lecturing us on how not to
said no evidence of human to human transmission
said it wasn't airborne, then it was
said little risk of spread at large indoor events, then outlawed them
said little risk of spread at large outdoor events, then outlawed them
put perspex screens everywhere which block airflow, and do nothing for airborne particles coming over the top
said masks are useless then enforced the wearing of them
decided public health policy with mathematical models which routinely get it wrong
patronised the public with silly slogans and songs to wash your hands to
over ventilated people, and bought shedloads of unused machines
built nightingale hospitals which were clearly never going to be used
went around shaking people hands in a pandemic
allowed the infected into old peoples homes
allowed the uninfected to get infected in hospitals.
have moved the age at which you can get certain approved vaccines due to safety worries, another mathematical model.
have as far as I know done little or nothing to assess the cleanliness,safety,airflow,practices of the hospitality/leisure industry which is about to open up.
People who question this aren't the same people claiming the vaccinated can stick spoons to their heads. You don't need any expertise or hindsight to question it, it was obvious from the start.
next slide please.. Smart motorways.
Indeed. As per your list, many of the things that the UK government have got wrong in the pandemic were done because they were following whatever was “the science” & the SAGE experts’ opinion at that particular time. “The science” & opinion then changed & the government changed the rules accordingly.
But since the start of the pandemic any questioning, of “the science” has been decried as misinformation. Respected scientists expressing valid concerns about lockdown’s effects on missed cancer treatments, heart attacks, strokes etc were attacked in the press or silenced e.g. by having social media accounts suspended. Yes the obvious loons who think Bill Gates is injecting people with microchips & suchlike should be ignored, but the general groupthink condemnation of any sort of questioning, however reasonable or well-informed it may be, is just as worrying.
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The fascinating thing about sciences and scientists is ... they can be wrong, as they always have to deal with what's going on during a specific time / moment. And there's a difference between an assumption and evidence. We have learned a lot about this virus during the last 18 months. Measures taken are political decisions, which are hopefully based on scientific evidence. How effective some measures are can always be discussed, but it's pretty obvious that gathering in rooms does not help fight a pandemic. And this brings any health system down.
It's also quite obvious that the UK government is not the best example for a good crisis management.
Having said that, and coming back to topic with that, I am pretty shocked that the UK government will allow 60,000 people in a stadium for the EURO finale. The virus and its delta-variant now keeps spreading among younger people in the UK. My hope for Genesis shows this fall in the UK is pretty much gone.
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My social media footprint, admittedly never very expansive anyway, has narrowed to this site and YouTube because I grew so weary of the politicization of seemingly every conversation. While I realize this is a single thread on this site I would like to express my sincere wish that we just put the more politicized fragments of the thread to rest. Less lecturing on the politics of pandemics and more listening to each other’s opinions on the world’s best band sounds splendid to me.
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My social media footprint, admittedly never very expansive anyway, has narrowed to this site and YouTube because I grew so weary of the politicization of seemingly every conversation. While I realize this is a single thread on this site I would like to express my sincere wish that we just put the more politicized fragments of the thread to rest. Less lecturing on the politics of pandemics and more listening to each other’s opinions on the world’s best band sounds splendid to me.
Hear! Hear!
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The fascinating thing about sciences and scientists is ... they can be wrong, as they always have to deal with what's going on during a specific time / moment. And there's a difference between an assumption and evidence. We have learned a lot about this virus during the last 18 months. Measures taken are political decisions, which are hopefully based on scientific evidence. How effective some measures are can always be discussed, but it's pretty obvious that gathering in rooms does not help fight a pandemic. And this brings any health system down.
It's also quite obvious that the UK government is not the best example for a good crisis management.
Having said that, and coming back to topic with that, I am pretty shocked that the UK government will allow 60,000 people in a stadium for the EURO finale. The virus and its delta-variant now keeps spreading among younger people in the UK. My hope for Genesis shows this fall in the UK is pretty much gone.
Hi Christian. Yes, that’s a pity : they will be forced to postpone again the UK tour. For the american leg of the tour, there’s actually no specific problems.
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Measures taken are political decisions, which are hopefully based on scientific evidence.
Hopefully! But they are not, I guess. Everyday now there is more evidence that most measures taken are based on nothing but false (or better: irrelevant) numbers.
Anyway, as the US is opening up everything to full capacity as many European countries do - why not UK, too? Germany will - as always - be the last in line.
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Hopefully! But they are not, I guess. Everyday now there is more evidence that most measures taken are based on nothing but false (or better: irrelevant) numbers.
Anyway, as the US is opening up everything to full capacity as many European countries do - why not UK, too? Germany will - as always - be the last in line.
Still trotting out the party line, eh? Coronavirus rallies: Germany′s growing anti-lockdown movement | Germany| News and in-depth reporting from Berlin and beyond | DW | 06.08.2020
DW (Deutsche Welle) is Germany's equivalent to the BBC World Service, and has a similar, highly regarded, high standard of reporting. And as seen in this article, they have had a reporter harangued by the protesters, just like the BBC did last week I believe, at an anti-lockdown rally.
I commented on Brazil the other day, in reply to another misguided commenter, and was "told" it was irrelevant to the issue. Odd! The country whose leadership has done nothing about the pandemic now has the biggest death rate currently ravaging the country, having failed to tackle this "non-existent" virus.
Isn't it ironic that information technology has enabled the misinformers and the misinformed more than anyone.
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Feel the nail has been put in the coffin for this tour happening as scheduled now sadly with these fucking variants
I'd be content with early/mid 2022.
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16,000 new cases in the UK yesterday. If the tour goes ahead in the UK, I will surely be without fans from outside the UK. Can't see this happening now (travelling etc), but on the other hand, there are everal weeks left.
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Please don't label people you disagree with as misinformed/misguided conspiracy theorists, you are stitching a lot of completely different viewpoints together by doing so. It's easy to lump everyone together as crackpots, but it doesn't advance the discussion.
Why should I comment on events in Brazil when it has no relevance whatsoever to anything I've said. It's a diversion, which I have no intention of wasting time on. I've yet to see anyone say it's a non-existent virus.
Many people have noticed the downfall of the once highly regarded media outlets of late, maybe you will one day, there's been a few scandals in the news lately that you may have missed.
That particular journalist is one of the few I respect, though his segment is limited to covering mostly Westminster tittle tattle. It was much better when Paxo and Steve Smith were around.
Steve's segment was a nice bit of light relief that is clearly missing from the show, he even interviewed the lads for the last reunion.
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Haven't foreigners been stopped from coming to the 60K euro's, doesn't bode well. You have to be careful following the media with their scary narrative about Delta getting out of control in the uk, the numbers currently in hospital are much lower than the peak, and the vaccinated numbers much higher, that's why all you hear are percentages and it's affecting younger people, to scare young people into getting the vaccination.
Fuuny! You have scandals, I have diversions.
Still, at least we agree on something: Not wasting time on each other.
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Hear! Hear!
Hey LL. Are you in PA? I thought you may have mentioned PA in one of your posts. The reason I’m bringing it up is to ask you if you’ve ever seen the Genesis cover bands that play the Keswick Theater just outside Philly? In addition to the renowned cover band the Musical Box I’ve seen the cover band The Genesis Show several times. They cover the 1976-1982 era and put on a helluva show. I’m proud to say that I’ve converted my girlfriend into a hardcore Genesis freak. We are seeing the MB in November a week after we see Genesis in Washington, DC (we live on the lower eastern shore of MD) and have tix for TGS as well, though that show is still being rescheduled. Long story short if you haven’t seen those bands (especially the Genesis Show) I highly recommend checking them out!
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Hey LL. Are you in PA? I thought you may have mentioned PA in one of your posts. The reason I’m bringing it up is to ask you if you’ve ever seen the Genesis cover bands that play the Keswick Theater just outside Philly? In addition to the renowned cover band the Musical Box I’ve seen the cover band The Genesis Show several times. They cover the 1976-1982 era and put on a helluva show. I’m proud to say that I’ve converted my girlfriend into a hardcore Genesis freak. We are seeing the MB in November a week after we see Genesis in Washington, DC (we live on the lower eastern shore of MD) and have tix for TGS as well, though that show is still being rescheduled. Long story short if you haven’t seen those bands (especially the Genesis Show) I highly recommend checking them out!
Hi! Yes I’m from outside of Philadelphia. I can honestly say that I’ve never seen a Genesis cover band, but would love too! I was looking for when the Musical Box may be playing again, that’s good to know. I’ll have to check them out. I’ve heard that they are top notch!