Absolute Peak of Genesis?

Quote from Art Vandaley

I disagree with much of this. For one thing, “Rush” and “metal” in the same sentence is odd. Secondly, you’re characterizing me as seeing these bands through eyes I’m not seeing. I dont expect Genesis to behave a certain way. Actually I gave examples of different bands handling things differently? I’m merely stating that Genesis has an unusual history and I wish they had a more complete show where the prog era was concerned.

I will stick by my statement that they went pop. It’s a no-brainer. Invisible Touch, Thats All, Follow You, Hold on my Heart, In Too Deep, Tonight, Throwing it All Away, etc….did I miss something? Are those prog songs? I could go on and on listing pop tunes. Do I hate those songs? Nah. Are they pop? Uh, yeah….

If you listen to the interviews of the band on the reissues, they often times were very critical and negative toward the classics and most interviews from the guys are far more glowing and rosy where “the hits” are concerned.

It's not unheard of for some of Rush's output to be considered as having some elements of metal, especially their earlier years, but if you don't agree that's absolutely fair enough.

The reason I picked up on your reference to other bands was that it seemed you were making a comparison. You described Genesis's relationship to their proggier stuff and said it wasn't usually how it goes, and went on to list the different relationships to early material other bands have. I read that as a "so why didn't Genesis do that?" comparison. Apologies for having apparently misinterpreted you. In which case, you appear to be saying different bands do things differently, which was the point I made too, so we can agree there.

I suppose my main issue is your use of "they went pop" which you also applied to Yes. I find it too sweeping and doesn't accurately describe the much more nuanced real picture. You listed some songs and asked if they're pop. I don't tend to think about music in such b&w categories but hey, if you want to file those songs under "pop", I'm fine with that. What about the songs I listed, which you didn't mention - are they pop too?

One of the things I love about Genesis is their resistance to rigid categorisation. Looking at the spread of stuff they produced post-Duke, which is the usual milestone for the "goodbye prog, hello pop" claims, I simply don't accept it can all be swept into a box marked "they went pop".

Quote from Art Vandaley

I disagree with much of this. For one thing, “Rush” and “metal” in the same sentence is odd. Secondly, you’re characterizing me as seeing these bands through eyes I’m not seeing. I dont expect Genesis to behave a certain way. Actually I gave examples of different bands handling things differently? I’m merely stating that Genesis has an unusual history and I wish they had a more complete show where the prog era was concerned.

I will stick by my statement that they went pop. It’s a no-brainer. Invisible Touch, Thats All, Follow You, Hold on my Heart, In Too Deep, Tonight, Throwing it All Away, etc….did I miss something? Are those prog songs? I could go on and on listing pop tunes. Do I hate those songs? Nah. Are they pop? Uh, yeah….

If you listen to the interviews of the band on the reissues, they often times were very critical and negative toward the classics and most interviews from the guys are far more glowing and rosy where “the hits” are concerned.

They may have started to write more pop, but they were still producing songs from their progressive roots. To support the point, Duke's Travels/Duke's End, Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea, Domino, and Fading Lights are definitely not pop!

Quote from HomeByTheSea

They may have started to write more pop, but they were still producing songs from their progressive roots. To support the point, Duke's Travels/Duke's End, Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea, Domino, and Fading Lights are definitely not pop!

And Naminanu, Submarine, and Do the Neurotic, in addition to quality “popish” songs like Evidence of Autumn, On the Shoreline, You Might Recall, and Feeding the Fire. They were writing and recording plenty of quality, substantive music. Unfortunately many of those songs weren’t included on the albums that directly came out of those various sessions.

Quote from MoonlitKnight

I remember being shocked attending the concert in Washington, DC on that tour and seeing Peter perform before a half empty arena.

Small world! I was at that show too, and I remember being quite surprised as well. When I arrived at the venue they were offering everyone with a GA lawn ticket to upgrade to a seat in the pavillion for 5 or 10 bucks, if I recall correctly.

Quote from Liquid Len

They weren’t very successful pop songs? Singles from Invisible Touch were all over top 40 radio stations all through the late 80’s and early 90’s. Every supermarket, dentist office waiting room, every car radio played those songs. You get the point. Disagree strongly that they weren’t successful pop songs.

I meant the ones they wrote in the 70s. Sorry, was typing after a very very long day at work!

Edit: and now I'm reading the rest of the thread and see your follow up. I'll.... I'll go ahead and stop now!

Quote from WinstonWolf

Small world! I was at that show too, and I remember being quite surprised as well. When I arrived at the venue they were offering everyone with a GA lawn ticket to upgrade to a seat in the pavillion for 5 or 10 bucks, if I recall correctly.

I think you’re talking about the outdoor concert in northern Virginia (was it at Wolf Trap?). I also saw Peter that tour at the hockey arena in downtown DC. Both venues were half empty for the concerts. Funny/gross story from the outdoor concert. I went with my brother. They had giant garbage cans at the venue. I went to throw something out and forgot our tix were in the same hand. Sure enough the tix went in the garbage. It was too deep to simply reach in and grab the tickets so my brother climbed over the rim and I hung onto his ankles while he dangled down and snatched them from the bottom of the can. Fun times lol

Quote from MoonlitKnight

I think you’re talking about the outdoor concert in northern Virginia (was it at Wolf Trap?). I also saw Peter that tour at the hockey arena in downtown DC. Both venues were half empty for the concerts. Funny/gross story from the outdoor concert. I went with my brother. They had giant garbage cans at the venue. I went to throw something out and forgot our tix were in the same hand. Sure enough the tix went in the garbage. It was too deep to simply reach in and grab the tickets so my brother climbed over the rim and I hung onto his ankles while he dangled down and snatched them from the bottom of the can. Fun times lol

Gotcha! I didn't realize he played in DC proper. Yeah, the gig I saw was in an outdoor amphitheater (wasn't Wolf Trap...Bristow?) and I remember thinking while looking around at the empty venue just how far Peter had slipped from the mainstream. I suppose that happens when you wait 10 years to release another album...

A reply to VL From an "old bloke". Did Genesis sell out? Of course they did, they went poppy and sold more records. Good luck to them. Did Phil take over? I don't think he did, don't think Tony and Mike would allow that.

This is a Genesis forum and as far as I can see it is not a Genesis forum for people who like anything they did in the last 45 years but not before, maybe I missed something?

The last Genesis album I bought when it was released was Wind and Wuthering because the later poppy music does not really interest me but I have never criticized anyone for liking their later period music.

Genesis were an amazing group who changed over the years and some people like the early music, some like the later music and some like it all.

Us "Old blokes" are as entitled to post on here as much as you youngsters and it is always nice to respect other peoples views and not imply they have no right to post here if they do not share your views.

Quote from Colbefc

A reply to VL From an "old bloke". Did Genesis sell out? Of course they did, they went poppy and sold more records. Good luck to them. Did Phil take over? I don't think he did, don't think Tony and Mike would allow that.

This is a Genesis forum and as far as I can see it is not a Genesis forum for people who like anything they did in the last 45 years but not before, maybe I missed something?

The last Genesis album I bought when it was released was Wind and Wuthering because the later poppy music does not really interest me but I have never criticized anyone for liking their later period music.

Genesis were an amazing group who changed over the years and some people like the early music, some like the later music and some like it all.

Us "Old blokes" are as entitled to post on here as much as you youngsters and it is always nice to respect other peoples views and not imply they have no right to post here if they do not share your views.

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Yup, the sold out! All the way back in 1968, they wrote a song called Silent Sun to get a record deal. Now if that isn't a sellout moment, I don't know what is!! 🤣🤣🤣

Quote from AndE

Yup, the sold out! All the way back in 1968, they wrote a song called Silent Sun to get a record deal. Now if that isn't a sellout moment, I don't know what is!! 🤣🤣🤣

Hahaha! Indeed. And then again when during their noble beloved early 70s prog phase they questioned PG"s foray into costumes, then saw it "added a zero to their earnings" and decided it was fine. What a bunch of opportunistic commercial-minded earnings-obsessed sellouts.

Quote from WinstonWolf

Gotcha! I didn't realize he played in DC proper. Yeah, the gig I saw was in an outdoor amphitheater (wasn't Wolf Trap...Bristow?) and I remember thinking while looking around at the empty venue just how far Peter had slipped from the mainstream. I suppose that happens when you wait 10 years to release another album...

Yes Bristow, that’s where PG played that summer. He played downtown DC the previous fall. I agree the 10 year break between albums didn’t help. Also as a solo act Peter had a hard core loyal following that temporarily added lots of pop fans with the success of Sledgehammer, but I think a lot of those people melted away over time. In retrospect I wish he had played smaller venues on that tour. The vibe would have been much more electric.

Don't like the phrase sold out. Sounds like a insult. They just did what they wanted to do. Made great albums , did great songs gave a lot of people a lot of pleasure . Don't really think its for us to guess reasons and judge them about motivations for musical directions. Its for for us to talk about what we love about their music and what it means to us. Still don't see why people get hot under the collar about it . Happens with a lot of bands. Genesis just did it better than anyone else. They never faded into oblivion banging out poorer versions of what they had already done.

Yeah I’m not a fan of “sold out” in that musicians have the right to write and perform whatever they please and should follow what brings them joy.

While I like their pop, it’s parsecs from their other-worldly epic prog. I do think $$$$ played a big part, and I’m sure on the $$$$ end Steve Hackett face palms when he thinks about what he left, but then again I can’t picture Steve strumming along to Thats All and Land of Confusion.

Peter’s the one who had his cake and ate it, too. His music remained experimental, kept its edge, retained its dark but beautiful sheen, all the while being $$$$ lucrative.

Genesis aren’t sell-outs, I just happen to be in that oddball minority of fans who prefer to see a Genesis with giants phalluses, fox masks, capes, old man masks, guitarists sitting on benches, sudden outbursts of “A FLOWER!?” etc. 😜😜😜 rather than holding your girlfriend tight swaying to and fro to Hold On My Heart 😂. What can I say? I’m a nerd!

Quote from Liquid Len

I love it all! From ‘When the Sour Turns to Sweet’ to ‘One Man’s Fool’. It’s all good! As I said the other day, there are some songs that just don’t do it for me, but I’ll still listen to their entire discography without hesitation.

100% likewise. There are tracks here and there that have never caught fire for me, but it's a small handful. Yes, that's right Battle of Epping Frigging Forest, I'm looking at you and willing you to reveal yourself to me.

Quote from Liquid Len

Don’t give up on it Watcher! It really is good! Very funny!

That's interesting. I mean, do you genuinely find it very funny? As touched on in the Illegal Alien discussion (which I suspect might shortly land me in some bother, but hey) I think PG 'did humour' better than the others later did but even then none of their output actually strikes me as funny. There are some mildly amusing names in Battle and as I've droned on about before I love The Reverend segment, it's one of my favourite PG-era pieces. But none it is especially funny or makes me laugh or even smile, well written as it is. That said, I don't tend to look to music for humour anyway. Few musicians are any good at it and Genesis certainly weren't, especially post-PG.

Art Vandaley I don't think your Genesis preferences make you a "nerd" or even necessarily put you in a minority.

Quote from Backdrifter

As touched on in the Illegal Alien discussion (which I suspect might shortly land me in some bother, but hey)

I think I landed myself in some bother just a hair ahead of you! My last contribution - which consisted of 4 words - is currently 'disabled'.

To the topic at hand: yeah, I can't think of a song that's made me laugh out loud (although much of Jim Steinman's work definitely brings a big smile to my face). BoEP is a big clunky song for me, it feels like a chore having to sit through the length of it to get to After the Ordeal, which I love. None of the other 70 - 75 Genesis epics does that to me. And like any Genesis song there are snippets I love, but it's one of the only examples in the Genesis canon where the bulk outweighs the beautiful little nuggets.

BTW Liquid Len I think I noticed you refer to One for the Vine in a similar way - but correct me if I'm wrong. That's a tune I think pays off in a big way. When it kicks into the disco section in the middle and then the melody and riff just expand and drive forward... blew me away the first time I heard it and the effect persists decades and hundreds of listens later.